Mike Licona admits that Paul was wrong about the timing of Jesus’ second coming but what Licona doesn’t realise is that according to Paul this was a Revelation that he received from Jesus about which he was obviously mistaken.
‘For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever.’
Yahya Snow comments: ‘It seems to me Mike Licona pretty much agrees with the arguments presented by Shabir Ally and Zakir Hussain concerning the false expectation that Jesus would return within the lifetime of the disciples. Mike can clarify his statement if he wishes but right now it is something Muslims and Christians need to be aware of. ‘
“The Most Embarrassing Verse in the Bible” – C.S. Lewis:
https://bloggingtheology.net/2016/05/…
Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship, Christianity
Blogging Theology 
already answered that.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/jesus-always-spoke-the-truth/
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LOL Ken, isn’t it convenient that you always seem to know better than every Biblical scholar who disagrees with your conservative views?
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not “every”; I have learned from others. Some scholars hold my view.
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No! That’s article has nothing to do with texts themselves.
” There seems to be a tribulation that Jesus speaks about as the events surrounding AD 70, but also that there will be a great tribulation in the world right before Christ returns.”
This conclusion cannot be lined up with texts.
Honesty can do miracles. Just allow for that honesty to be released
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“I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” Some have claimed that Jesus was wrong when He said this. Not true.
How easily I can miss or misinterpret basic truths that Jesus emphasized repeatedly. Check it out. Some who were standing there were looking at Christ when He made that statement, right? and guess what? by looking at Him they could see clearly the very kingdom of God. They were gazing upon God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, in the present tense He was/is the Kingdom of God. “He who hath seen Me hath seen the Father.” Now that’s a trip, if I think about it. There He was, God Almighty, Jesus Christ, in all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,
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Lol, yes I know. You’ve learned from other conservatives who share your assumptions of Biblical “inerrancy”.
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Even if “muslims are right about the bible” that does not mean that Islam or the quran are the truth. The quran makes significant embarrassing claims about the nature of the world that are just silly, it makes claims about other religions that are false (Jews worship Ezra, LOL), repeats christian and jewish fables and fairy tales as though they revelations, gives no guidance on how to worship such that muslims have to borrow heavily from pagan worship practices, and is needlessly repetitive.
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“… and is needlessly repetitive.” lol.
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Yep, some people have no sense of their own faults lol
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Burhanudin
Stories are repeated many, many times over in the quran or no reason whatsoever.
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Oh the irony lol
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Trey, your comments about Ezra are covered in the following video, please take time to view it. Thanks
As for the claim of repeating Jewish and Christian fables; the Quran teaches us which stories in antiquity were true. Thus via the Quran we know the flood account, virgin birth, Jesus raising the dead etc. were all true.
As for repetition; it’s a great way to teach people.
“There are several instances where the Bible repeats larger chunks of texts — stories, whole collections of stories, and sometimes even whole books.” Sam O’Neil
Here’s the video:
Peace
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Lol, why does this happen everytime? The topic is about Paul’s mistaken belief about Jesus’ second coming and all of a sudden, it changes to the Quran? Hmm, I think I understand the strategy of Christian apologists!
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Faiz
The argument is that muslims are right about the bible – the implication is that islam must be true as a consequence. This obviously nonsense.
If the bible is false, the quran is almost certainly so false it is not even funny. The quran doesn’t even mention Paul, so whatever muslims believe about him is not in any way mentioned in your own holy book.
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Hi Trey,
I agree in that just because the Bible is being shown to be fallacious and unreliable doesn’t by default make Islam true.
However, in Islam we have a religion which taught the Trinity is not a true belief, Chrisians are following conjecture and the Christian scriptures aren’t reliable (well before what modern day scholarship on the Bible and the Trinity doctrine). This is a powerful sign post towards directing people to look into the Quran with an open mind.
Peace
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Yahya
Where does the quran mention the apostle Paul?
The problem you have is that the quran does not in any formulate any accurate description of the trinity, it does not even use the word trinity, and does not mention the holy spirit at all. Just like whatever muslims believe about Paul is not found in the quran, what muslims argue against the trinity is not found in the quran either.
In fact, so inconsequential is the quran that most muslim practices are not even found in it – 5 prayers a day, wudu rituals, circling the kaaba 7 times, kissing the black stone, even the hajj is only vaguely referred to in the quran. I believe that the quran doesn’t even tell muslims to go to Mecca to make the hajj.
The point here is that if you deny the bible, then islam has nothing except for the hadith which was only written down centuries after the events they claim to describe. As Dan Gibson has pointed out, the early mosques faced the pagan center of Petra which is not even mentioned at all in the islamic sources. This makes the entire body of islamic scriptures suspect.
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Hi Trey,
The Quran does not mention Paul.
The Quran denounces the Trinity notion. We are taught not to say three. That is an instruction for us to repudiate all Trinity theories; whether they are Modalistic, Tritheistic or the 3-Self Trinity doctrine that our evangelical friends believe.
The purpose of the Quran is not to teach us the ins and outs of the Trinity doctrine. The key message to take on board is that it is a false belief. Every Muslim believes the Trinity belief is a false belief thus the Quran clearly teaches this.
As for the Hadith, they are an intrinsic part of the religion. We take the religion as a whole thus we accept the Quran and the Hadith.
The Quran orders us to establish Salah (prayers) throughout the Quran. Sure the specifics come via the Hadith in terms of how to pray etc but the Hadith are part of the religon.
The Quran does order the Hajj, see Quran 3:97
Trey, as this discussion is veering away from the content of the post I will have to leave it here but all the best.
Peace
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Yahya
LOL – that is awesome!
Moving the goalposts doesn’t help you. Does the quran refute the trinity specifically, or some random notion of “three”, which much like many other aspects of islamic practice required men writing in the hadith several centuries later to explain what it meant?
Nowhere in the quran does allah use the terms trinity or triune. Nowhere does it say father, son and holy spirit. Nowhere does it talk about god’s incarnate word. In other words, the quran seems to be completely ignorant of christian belief. Allah didn’t know what 7th century christians believed? How can god be so ignorant?
You have all but admitted that muslims follow the guidance of man-made books written centuries after mohammed died, and which borrow from pagan worship practices and rituals. Whatever muslims practice, the quran does not for the most part command you to do.
Which underlines how the criticism of Paul in this post exposes the quran as a man-made book. If Paul was wrong and somehow misled early christians, then why doesn’t allah say something about him in his “revelation”? Why do muslims have to borrow so heavily from atheist and agnostic liberal scholars to prove allah’s word? Allah needs atheists to prove he is the true god?
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“You have all but admitted that muslims follow the guidance of man-made books written centuries”?
Centuries?
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Trey, according to your own Bible and your Church fathers, Paul used lies and deception to draw people to Christianity:
https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/11/28/1-corinthians-9-apostle-pauls-missionary-deception-taqiyya/
Why do you believe/follow a man who did such ??
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Discover the truth
If that is true, why doesn’t allah mention Paul in the quran? Surely such an evil person who led so many astray would have been known by the almighty allah?
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Paul
‘Centuries?”
Yes.
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hmmm so who is wrong. the divene inspired word of God or mike licona and cross hating muslims?
A word to the wise if u find cross hating muslims agreeing with ur interpritation and doctrine then something is wrong with ue inteepritation.
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Sir, it’s apparent by your statement that you’re not on a truth quest. You’ve got to change your approach.
Peace
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I find using a good dictionary helpful in avoiding embarrassing spelling mistakes
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Jesus Chisr said “I AM the truth” u reject Jesus so it is u who reject the truth. i accept Jesus as THE TRUTH so it is not I but u who need to chanfe his approach. U can vontinue to believe a man or u can believe the inspired word of God
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Dreadful English.
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paul dont mock my ahruf lol
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Learn proper English dude
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The effects of cross loving
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You love the cross on which you believe your God was humiliated and murdered.
Wow, this is disturbing idolatry.
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the “we” of 1 Thessalonians 4:15 does not mean Paul means he thought Jesus would return in his lifetime; he is just using that as a rhetorical literary device to include all believers who are alive at the time when Jesus does return.
“We believers”, “believers in Christ like me, all Christians”, etc.
The criticism is very weak.
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the case is very strong if you put yourself in the position of a reader (or listener) of the letter in Thessaloniki in the first century. Then you will see the problem. Licona is practicing the historical critical method. His conclusion is honest, accurate and shared by other scholars.
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Dr. White refuted Dr. Licona on other issues.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2016/08/18/mark-confused-birth-narratives-original-readings/
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But Ken that is not linked to the topic of the post.
Not only this, Licona responded to White. Why not link to that post?
Look, I don’t really care about that mini debate between James and Mike over whether Mark was confused as both have their points of view; Mike doesn’t seem to buy James’ explanation and I feel there’s significance there.
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The more details that Licona is forced to comment on, the more and more liberal he is becoming.
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what do you mean by ‘liberal’?
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You already know what that means.
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in that case you are wrong to apply it to Licona. He is not a liberal.
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He is more liberal leaning on some things.
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he is being honest. You damn him for that.
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But he still affirms the historicity of the crucifixion, the death of Christ on the cross, the resurrection, the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc.
So, you don’t have a good case for Islam, using him.
He debated Shabir Ally I think also.
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No, I don’t “damn” him at all.
I am disappointed in his approach on some things; but affirm him as a brother in Christ.
So you are wrong. Take that back what you wrote.
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Nope. You damn him in as many words. You think so-called “liberal scholarship” is of the devil and anti-christian. You have said so many times.
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No; you cannot say “you damn him” when I clearly said, “I do not damn him”. Take it back.
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its a figure of speech dude. Get over it. You said I was “going to hell” on twitter just now. I take it in my stride.
I asked you if Sam Shamoun was going to hell (for calling people ‘fool’ and much worse) if he does not repent – and you have still not replied.
So will he?
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You called conservative scholars who hold to inerrancy “dishonest fools” – you don’t their hearts and that is an unfair assessment.
I have seen Sam get angry and use other words, (which I have rebuked him for, etc.) but I don’t remember him using the word “fool”.
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are you serious???
lol Sam has used foul language, hate-speech, and slander. He more than qualifies for hell by your criteria. Or are you going to split hairs?
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I clearly rebuked him for all of that also.
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Licona did a good job in refuting Shabir Ally above.
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How come ?!
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Just listen to the exchange and look up the verses and meditate on them. Mark 14:60-64
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Liberalism has many levels on a spectrum.
Licona is only liberal leaning on some issues.
But other scholars are more liberal, without being completely liberal.
There is a big difference between Licona, then Bauckham, then N. T. Wright vs. fairly liberal like James D. G. Dunn, vs. completely liberal like Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan.
big spectrum.
I never said he was of the devil, etc.
Take it back.
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which part of “nope” do you not understand?
its a figure of speech dude. Get over it. You said I was “going to hell” on twitter just now. I take it in my stride.
I asked you if Sam Shamoun was going to hell (for calling people ‘fool’ and much worse) if he does not repent – and you have still not replied.
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You also slander all Christians who sincerely believe in Christ and the Bible as “dishonest fools” and anti-intellectual nuts, etc. – you are cruel in your heart against sincere Christians.
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no I don’t. You lie.
I am like an ex-smoker who hates to see people who are destroying their bodies with nicotine.
I too was an inerrantist, and tried to defend this foolish doctrine. It has caused me no end of heart-ache and nearly destroyed my faith.
Intelligent, otherwise educated people, should not be defending the indefensible as a central component of their faith. It is spiritual cancer.
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Actually, you did destroy your faith. Jesus said “I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23) and 2 Peter 2:22 says those that leave the faith are like pigs going back to wallowing in mud and like dogs returning to vomit. Your nature was never changed and you never had the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity.
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Jesus did say that in Matthew 5:21-26
You called everyone who believes in Inerrant “dishonest fools” and you don’t know their hearts nor their sincerity. So Jesus’ words condemn you.
21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
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they are fools for covering over the truth of the bible when they should know better. You were quick to judge me worthy of hell fire. Let me ask you for a third time:
Will Sam Shamoun also be liable to hell fire for his foul language against people?
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I have not answered that because I never saw him call someone a “fool”; though I have seen him call people other names.
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so are you saying it only the singular use of the word ‘fool’ that is the problem? Worse language is not as bad or liable to hell fire?
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That’s why I rebuked him several times by email and here at your blog.
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is he going to hell for his words – if unrepentant?
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and he rebuked you right back!
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Since you are quick to judge all who believe in inerrancy as “dishonest fools”, I gave you a warning from Matthew 5:21-22, because you don’t know their hearts.
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Mediate on Matthew 5:21-22 and take up your being offended with Jesus Himself. I am just warning you based on Jesus’ words.
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his “rebuke” to me was so incredible weak and without credibility and all the Muslims here agreed with me, even you.
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of course. But is he going to hell fire?
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Ken Temple brings forward the biblicist “argument”:
“Jesus did say that in Matthew 5:21-26
You called everyone who believes in Inerrant “dishonest fools” and you don’t know their hearts nor their sincerity. So Jesus’ words condemn you.
….
… and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”
Yet, the HS fails to inspire him that Jesus repeatedly called people fools: Matt. 23:17,19 “Ye fools and blind…” Luke 11:40 “Ye fools,…”
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Ouch!!
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Jesus as God in the flesh and Lord and Savior and Judge, has the right to call evil sinners fools.
We do not.
But I think we can say about someone’s views and behavior, if we have the evidence, that they are acting foolishly, and holding to foolish views.
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Indeed. And that is what I did, thanks.
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Talk about double standards Ken.
“…WHOEVER says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.”
Biblicism when it suits you, yes. Biblicism when it refutes you, no.
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Ken Temple says
“Jesus as God in the flesh and Lord and Savior and Judge, has the right to call evil sinners fools.”
According to Ken Temple everyone is an evil sinner. If Ken Temple is right, Ken Temple’s Jesus should have called everyone a fool.
Which he didn’t. The Biblical Jesus can’t be Ken Temple’s Jesus.
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Matthew 7:11
Luke 12:20
Mark 7:20-23
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Still not calling everyone a fool. Different Jesus still. Try again.
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Paul, you said they are “dishonest fools”, you did not say “they hold to foolish views”.
Adding the word “dishonest” – you are judging hearts on those that sincerely believe the Bible is God’s Word; yet you hold the right to hold the Qur’an as God’s revelation without criticism.
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That’s really got to you and White – I can see that. But I believe you are both being dishonest. Sorry if you are offended but I know what it’s like to be in your situation. It’s tough.
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Nope, you are wrong and it is not tough. We can deal with apparent contradictions does not mean we are “dishonest”. We are honest about the textual variants. Uthman destroyed the evidence of older texts in Islam, so that was more dishonest in covering up the evidence and he used the sword and government power to enforce one frozen text of the Qur’an. Destroying evidence is dishonest.
But in your case, You won’t answer the moral problem with Muhammad taking Zayd’s wife Zainab and then abolishing adoption, one of the greatest acts of kindness that human beings can show to orphans. Not even willing to address issues seems to indicate that you are dishonest about the problems with the Qur’an and Islam and some AHadith.
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It did not “get to me” at all. It is just good to have evidence against your polemics and agenda. We caught you in double standard and inconsistency and you cannot deal with it.
Just as you attack the Bible and Christianity, we have every right to answer you. Just because we answer and defend does not mean it “got to us”.
It is a great illustration of your inconsistency and double standards.
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Thing is Ken you and people like White are such an easy target. Even your own scholars are turning on you.
If you defend dishonest and obviously false beliefs you will be ridiculed.
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But I sincerely appreciate how you are allowing more open debate these days. Very good of you.
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It is noteworthy that a Muslim blog welcomes debate and criticism yet Christian ones usually do not.
For example Sam Shamoun’s new blog regularly attacks me but will not post any replies from me. Ditto David wood and his website.
They dish it out but can’t take it themselves.
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Burhanuddin1 – you did not read the verses very closely. Try again. read, digest, meditate on them, study them, read all the way through and think about your own internal sins.
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Another text is Matthew 25:1-13
Everyone who is not prepared for judgment day / death, or when Christ returns is like those foolish virgins who were lazy and did not prepare.
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Ken I assure you I can read. The Biblical Jesus does not call everyone a fool. Don’t worry about “my internal sins”. You take care of yours, that’s a hell of a job.
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I think your blog is the only one like that. That is why I like it.
David Wood moderates but usually allows Muslims to comment and oppose, but the problem is too many times SOME Muslims go ad hominem and talk dirty and make death threats.
Sam has a blog ?
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Yes Sam has a new one called Answering Muslims. Looks like he has fallen out with the well known Answering Muslims site and started his own.
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where is it? I cannot find it. google search takes me to David Wood’s website or http://www.answering-islam.org
How do you know there has been a “falling out” ?
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I’m not going to give you the URL as I disapprove of his lunatic rants.
Putting my Sherlock Holmes hat on I deduce there has been a falling out, or why else has he stopped writing for the big site and started his own with the same name?
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ok; I think I found it now after more searching. But nowhere does he identify himself.
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Really? But he has attempted to post articles on this blog but I have deleted them – in retaliation for censuring my replies. But most of the articles are by him as you can tell by his writing style.
So why has he started a new blog?
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He has a lot of articles up at other sites also, like “Reformed Apologetics” (Keith Thompson) and Madmanna’s blog.
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True. But none by you as you have fallen out.
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Ken Temple, do you think Mike Licona believes like you Jesus preached everyone is an evil sinner and called everyone a fool?
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“I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.” Some have claimed that Jesus was wrong when He said this. Not true.
To see Him is to see His Kingdom. Very, very simple
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