okay, did i just read that the christians are saying that god self abused himself with his own divine punishment?
this is crazy stuff
are we to believe that 3 individual persons are using divine wrath and pouring it on one of the persons within the same group which is exercising wrath?
“only god could pay such an infinite penalty”
i am trying to figure out how he becomes object of his own wrath
“Jesus is God but he is not the whole of God. I can see the pacific ocean from my home but i can’t see the whole of the pacific ocean”
if you get a jug and collect water from the ocean, then are you still seeing the pacific ocean when you stare at the jug?
jesus is a part which is not fully god. it is only a part which you are viewing from your home. thanks for telling everyone that your god is not complete/100 % fully god
God has absolute authority over all aspects of creation. He alone defines what death is and who may or may not live (another reason christians are not commanded to kill).
God has the power to make his Word incarnate into flesh and allow it to die and be resurrected.
There is no refutation of the incarnation here – just juvenile reasoning.
The Christian in the post clearly says God died several times. This idea is contrary to common sense and the teaching of the Quran and Bible (see the 1 Timothy passages).
What you have done is redefine the problem. No longer is it God who dies but ‘God has the power to make his Word die’ clearly an entity other than God who you call an “it”.
If “it” is a being other than God then of course it can die. But that is not the claim being made in the post which is that “God dies”.
“The Christian in the post clearly says God died several times. This idea is contrary to common sense and the teaching of the Quran and Bible (see the 1 Timothy passages).
What you have done is redefine the problem. No longer is it God who dies but ‘God has the power to make his Word die’ clearly an entity other than God who you call an “it”.”
LOL..
That’s what I mean by juvenile reasoning.
Human flesh dies, god doesn’t. There is no redefinition at all.
“If “it” is a being other than God then of course it can die.”
LOL.
Circular reasoning is your strong point. You have to show your working out on that one – your argument is that god can’t die, so god can’t die. That shows no understanding of christian doctrine, and an even more serious inability to reason logically.
Human flesh dies, god doesn’t. There is no redefinition at all.”
So now you have shifted your ground again!
Now you say it was just the human part of Jesus who died – not his God part.
But this makes a mockery of the belief that Jesus died on the cross, as only part of him did. So now you have a human sacrifice which according to God in the Jewish scriptures is an abomination.
Your evasions and wriggling around indicate you agree with me that God does not die. And thus the exposition of Christian doctrine in the post is easily refuted by 4 simple words:
As expected, you avoided correcting the error in your reasoning. Christian doctrine says that god can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as the Father in heaven.
“God has the power to make his Word incarnate into flesh and allow it to die and be resurrected.”
1. was god impressed by human sacrifice and blood offering so much that he decided to experience what humans have been doing for thousands of years? is god only human? you know it is not impressive at all that your poughter god performs a self sacrifice. give a regular human being powers over his life and death and i am sure millions would kill themselves to save people. if they can do it without divine powers, then they are more impressive than a guy who moans like a COWARD and is reluctant in garden to perform self sacrifice.
lot people do not moan like a bitch before going to their deaths
for example :
saddam hussain did not moan like a bitch and begged god to remove the cup
“But this makes a mockery of the belief that Jesus died on the cross, as only part of him did. So now you have a human sacrifice which according to God in the Jewish scriptures is an abomination.”
god who is invisible BECOMES visible and has feelings just like all humans do
you have A = god and B = man
they want god to exist as A and B @ the same time
so 2 natures existing in 1 person at the same time
so when the 1 person is being impaled to the cross, then it only make sense that his 2 united natures are FULLY experiencing what it is to be nailed
otherwise you have a costume and you labelled it “god”
otherwise you have 1 person + human nature MINUS the divine nature lol
but what is god without his POWERS? costume?
so they must admit that
fully god and fully man (united in 1 person)
experiences FULL wrath of human beings
what happens is that it gets even worse than this. when the costume is taken off, then god gets roasted in hell
who is experiencing the roasting in hell? the costume? the human soul? the divine person who experiences the human soul?
as can be seen, they cannot disconnect the united natures and say that what is happening to one is happening to the other, otherwise when only one is experiencing, then the question is
“god who is invisible BECOMES visible and has feelings just like all humans do
you have A = god and B = man
they want god to exist as A and B @ the same time
so 2 natures existing in 1 person at the same time
so when the 1 person is being impaled to the cross, then it only make sense that his 2 united natures are FULLY experiencing what it is to be nailed
otherwise you have a costume and you labelled it “god”
otherwise you have 1 person + human nature MINUS the divine nature”
What is your point? is there one? God cannot experience what his creation experiences? Humans have experiences that god doesn’t know about? Allah sounds limited. LOL.
“but what is god without his POWERS? costume?”
He’s god incarnated into flesh but still god in heaven. Don’t you know christian doctrine?
what happens is that it gets even worse than this. when the costume is taken off, then god gets roasted in hell
You’ve got to stop listening to charlatan islamic apologists. God defeat death and hell, that’s what happened. Then he was resurrected.
“He’s god incarnated into flesh but still god in heaven. Don’t you know christian doctrine?”
i am sure that even you don’t understand your stupid nonsensical beliefs
all you are doing is creating a flesh existence for a human being , labelling it “god” even though it has absolutely no experience of what god is
for example , the person on earth doesn’t have access to the god in heaven
he sees like a human
eats like one
and hears like one
this means , you have a human being , who you give a label too
if the god with divine powers has full access to what it is like eating, crapping, farting, sleeping , pain etc then why not say that god the divine being fully experienced as “god in heaven” ?
“You’ve got to stop listening to charlatan islamic apologists. God defeat death and hell, that’s what happened. Then he was resurrected.”
your god did not DEFEAT death
if i put someone in a coma and that person came out of coma after 3 days, then did that person defeat coma?
and hell? hell roasted your god.
it seems like you are creating new EXISTENCES for your god in different places
I have no doubt whatsoever that I will not die. This shell that houses the true me is crumbling, all too quickly. It will return to the elements very soon. Life is a vapor. In no time it will be all gone. But, my essence will not perish. It will go to heaven or hell.
“Is there an NT quote in all of that incoherent raving in which it is written that god ceased to exist?”
one guy in hyde park said that the greek gods were true gods because no matter how many times they died , they always came back to life again and again.
i mean if we go by your clownish understanding then god could die a hundred times. even give his powers to the next man.
immortal is defined as something that does not experience something that prevents it to live
it does not experience finiteness in its knowledge, sight, hearing and power , otherwise it would not be powerful to the fullest degree i.e ULTIMATE
immortal . ultimate. nothing about . the stopping point .
1 person, 2 natures fully experienced the pains and pangs of death, you attributed this crap to the ALMIGHTY?
doesn’t isaiah 53 say that the suffering servant was ugly mofo who looked deformed?
i have no problem with deformed people, but you just made fun of your “saviour”
As expected, you avoided correcting the error in your reasoning. Christian doctrine says that god can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as the Father in heaven.
You have to refute that, and no muslim ever has
I say;
You can refute Man God Emperor Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and other men Gods idols that are God incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as a God.
You have to refute that, and Christians never has. Christians are worshiping God Man and believed it is not refutable just like Rastafarians and Hindus and other God men are worshiping God Men and think it is not refutable.
Worshiping a creature i.e. man and think it is irrefutable, is the most silly thing to say by not knowing that it is the same as Hindus worshiping creatures i.e. man, men, monkeys, elephants, etc. and some people like voodoos worshiping snakes others worshiping pigs etc. are claiming their creature worshiping which they think are God can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as God.
Graham, you are stupid not to know by your criteria you cannot refute voodoo snake worshipers or Hindus monkey that says god can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as God.
As Paul has said, when a Christians is cornered, he either change the subject or change words. Do not worry Graham, I am here to tell you what Jesus commanded in the Bible. You have succeeded in changing this topic but you cannot by your criteria refute idols that their worshipers says are God incarnate in flesh whilst simultaneously existing as a God.
Your believe is idolatry and idol worshiping believe that God can become anything to love them and that God is irrefutable.
God’s word pierces even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. A soul, a spirit, they are invisible and tough to define. I don’t believe personally that human beings are the sum total of electrical/chemical pulses. Our brains work due to electrochemical activity in a flesh and blood framework, but we are not merely those transactions, like an advanced robot. A robot lost in a forest is a shame. A child lost in a forest is a gut wrenching tragedy. The difference? We are more than just physical objects pounded out in a manufacturing plant, I think.
quote:
God’s word pierces even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. A soul, a spirit, they are invisible and tough to define.
end quote
god starts of as beginingless invisible being. you are just trying to confuse by using “soul and spirit”
god invisible being, becomes a weak and created visible person
most people will ask what in this invisible being became something?
is this invisible being IMMORTAL
then he isn’t dying, dies and died.
human being dying, dies and died
but if the invisible being is not dying, dies and died like human being, then the two are separate and not UNITED
for example
i can decide to end my seeing anything
i can choose to become blind
if god is all seeing, then can he choose to become blind? can god already see what he did not see and he already knows he did not see what he saw ?
does this make sense?
having god exist as blind person implies you picked up a costume and decided to label the eyes on it as “man god eyes ”
what you are doing is creating a FINITE existing for something you label as “god” even though you know it is not god because the blind man has nothing INHERENT within his blindness which can ALTERNATE and become ALL seeing again
A man died on a cross. A man was spit upon, whipped, punched in the face. A son watched as his mother collapse in agony during his brutal death. A brother had no where to lay His head. A teacher finished His lessons. A human being thirsted. A friend was betrayed. A cousin and a nephew and an uncle perished. A brilliant student was massacred. A human being asked his Father to forgive those who viciously murdered him. A man asked, MY GOD, MY GOD, Where are you? Where have you gone? And He was God Almighty, hanging there, humiliated, naked, covered in dirt and grime and blood everywhere, beard yanked out, his back, butt and legs like ribbons of raw steak, and the reflection of his mom in his weary eyes. He let her watch and her pain killing him just like the spikes driven through his ankles. And He let that happen. He could have stopped it. He could have destroyed all His enemies in a flash of wrath. But, He bled and died for you and for me. And at that moment, He was reunited with the repentant scoundrel who died next to Him. That very same day they were in heaven together just as He said, while a few brave, very, very brave women and Joseph placed his lifeless, swollen, shattered remains in a tomb..
“Where have you gone? And He was God Almighty, hanging there, humiliated, naked, covered in dirt and grime and blood everywhere, beard yanked out, his back, butt and legs like ribbons of raw steak, and the reflection of his mom in his weary eyes. He let her watch and her pain killing him just like the spikes driven through his ankles. And He let that happen. He could have stopped it. He could have destroyed all His enemies in a flash of wrath. But, He bled and died for you and for me. And at that moment, He was reunited with the repentant scoundrel who died next to Him. That very same day they were in heaven together just as He said, while a few brave, very, very brave women and Joseph placed his lifeless, swollen, shattered remains in a tomb..”
are you saying that fully divine being was fully experiencing what crucified people were experiencing ?
you said “he could have destroyed all his enemies in a flash…”
but you know he couldn’t do that because his prayer in the garden got rejected and then on the cross he asked his god ” why have you forsaken me” i.e, you always were helping me out with miracles ,what the hell happen now? save me from death like you did elijah and others.
but jesus died and never showed his face to the pharisees again.
your graphic description and obsession with suffering doesn’t give me a hard on at all. it is not impressive.
people are dying this minute
children are suffering
african dogs eat live animals
none of this gives me a hard on.
And sending them to Bethlehem, he said: “Go, search carefully for the Child, and when you find Him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship Him.” After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stood over the place where the Child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with great delight.…Just then, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people: Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord!… And this shall be a sign unto you: Ye shall find the Babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men!” And it came to pass, when the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, “Let us now go even unto Bethlehem and see this thing which has come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.” And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the Babe lying in a manger. And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this Child. And all those who heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.
Edward,
Ah yes, 2 natures, 1 person, thanks for reminding me. Seems there is always an illogical way out of a logical conundrum for Trinitarian Christians, very slippery that lot. But it still doesn’t address the core issue, that God never dies (1 Timothy) as PW has pointed out.
edward
November 1, 2016 • 5:35 pm
“Can’t say I would worship someone who messed his nappies though.”
don’t worry they have a solution to that. god farting and excreting was 2 natures, 1 person
//but whenever you get embarrassed by godly act
just – the divine nature.//
Yes, Wev heard this argument too well, the problem is God is still and always God and Jesus remained and was always a human like anyone of us (Allah Al Qareeb) God is the nearest/within people) There was never such a thing as union.
“When Jesus died on the cross the mercy of God did not become any greater. It could not become any greater, for it was already infinite. We get the odd notion that God is showing mercy because Jesus died. No–Jesus died because God is showing mercy. It was the mercy of God that gave us Calvary, not Calvary that gave us mercy. If God had not been merciful there would have been no incarnation, no babe in the manger, no man on a cross and no open tomb.” a w tozer
Death is separation. Physical death is when the soul-spirit separates from the physical body. So, in that sense, yes, God died, because Jesus was God in human form, and Jesus’ soul-spirit separated from His body (John 19:30). However, if by “death” we mean “a cessation of existence,” then, no, God did not die.
”When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.…”
He was fully God even while he grew inside His mother. To think that I could have held Him in one hand when He was so tiny and helpless but God Almighty blows my brains out. That’s when it hits home just how precious and special every one is; we all are, every baby, every child, teen, adult and every old person of inestimable value.
I agree that I do sometimes look silly, but bear with me.
You agree with Islam and the Bible that God does not die.
Then why is it I’m told over and over by virtually all Christians that He did die? The post says he did. Jay Smith and his disciples say God died all the time. Are they all wrong and you are right?
I don’t agree with islam at all – I agree with the OT and NT i which god is revealed as a single plural being.
And no christian says that god died – we say that the fleshly incarnation of god died, we just take it as a given that people comprehend the concept of incarnation.
For some reason you and the muslims on this blog don’t understand the simple concept of the plural god. That’s why you look so silly in your certainty.
No that is not what I am saying. You are putting words in my mouth. Creating straw men as usual. Fact is many Christians would have a poor view of your theology.
“No that is not what I am saying. You are putting words in my mouth. Creating straw men as usual.”
This is really easy, PAul. WHy don’t you explain what you are saying? Death means that you cease to exist doesn’t it? When you say “god died” do you mean that he ceased to exist?
I am making sense. If you do not understand I could not care less. However many evangelical minsters and preachers would reject your ramblings as heretical. I should be more concerned about that if I were you.
“This is really easy, PAul. WHy don’t you explain what you are saying? Death means that you cease to exist doesn’t it? When you say “god died” do you mean that he ceased to exist?”
immortal
ɪˈmɔːt(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
living forever; never dying or decaying.
we know this won’t sink it to your pagan thick skull
never dying does not mean “ceased to exist”
it means it lives without feeling any TYPE of death
“I am making sense. If you do not understand I could not care less. However many evangelical minsters and preachers would reject your ramblings as heretical. I should be more concerned about that if I were you.”
Okay, paul. Quote me many evangelical ministers who say that god ceased to exist?
It should be easy since you assert my perspective runs counter to theirs…….
Paul, again, I don’t mean to preach. Please tell me what that means, “to preach” vs. what you want. I am unclear about it.
I refer to His birth because we could use an argument along the same lines you are by saying that God can’t be born, right? God can’t be a young child? God can’t walk on two feet, He doesn’t breathe, He can’t eat food. But, He did do those things and of course He died. He set aside some divine attributes to become Man/God. That is a given. God is omnipresent, but Jesus wasn’t everywhere at once when He took the form of a human being. That’s why I said I could hold Him in one hand. God cannot be held in the hands of a human being. That is ridiculous. Of course not, but there He was, as told in the synoptic gospels, described in some detail as the One, God incarnate, as a new born baby.
Paul, it is similar to the question, If you are really God’s son, prove it and come down from there.As a man, he couldn’t pull the stakes out and drop off the platform of His execution, and therefore because He didn’t, they were convinced He was just a mere man. But, He actually did have the wherewithal to come down, if He had decided to do so.
At best, my attempts to understand some of these things fall way short. But, I have been loved by something I never knew existed. Like the blind dude, I don’t know much, but I gotta say, I once was a vile, hateful, stinking, letching gray and I’m not as hateful anymore. I am so grateful I don’t want to hurt others as much as I used to. That is like heaven for me. The story goes, a drunk was asked if he believed in heaven. “I sure do”. “Why?” Pointing to his midsection he says, “Cause I got hell right here.”
Paul
This really is not that hard. Christian doctrine holds that god incarnated into human flesh whilst simultaneously existing outside of his creation.
I say;
All creature worshipers who worship creatures like Jesus Christ, Emperor Haile Selaissie, Monkeys, pigs, snakes, elephants, etc. holds that god incarnated into human flesh, snake flesh, monkey flesh, pig or swine flesh, elephant flesh etc. whilst simultaneously existing outside of his creation.
All those are idolatry and creature worshipers and will be burned in the hell fire if they do not repent.
Muslims kiss and caress a stone, and walk around a tent muttering repetitive prayers like the pagans – nowhere in the OT or NT does it say to do this. In fact, nowhere in the quran does it say to do this. Muslims practice this idolatry because a human being told them to do so.
“Muslims kiss and caress a stone, and walk around a tent muttering repetitive prayers like the pagans – nowhere in the OT or NT does it say to do this. In fact, nowhere in the quran does it say to do this. Muslims practice this idolatry because a human being told them to do so.”
out of curiosity what is your problem with kissing a stone which has no image on it?
quote
Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
2Kings 18:4
He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.
IF THEY DID NOT BURN INCENSE TO IT AND CALLED IT NEHUSHTAN, then would moses object to looking at it or even kissing it?
wouldn’t you smother and kiss a half naked jew if he appeared to you with holes in his hands and feet?
Those two biblical quotes condemn kissing the black stone and circling the kaaba reciting mindless, repetitive prayers like the pagans.
The serpent was not put there to be an object of veneration. The israelites had turned it into an object of worship – just like muslims have turned kissing the black stone into a worship ritual.
“wouldn’t you smother and kiss a half naked jew if he appeared to you with holes in his hands and feet?”
Actually, yes I would. If someone you knew was supposed to be dead from the very wounds that his body is displaying and he had previously told you he would rise after being crucified as an atonement for sin, then yes I most certainly would worship him.
“Those two biblical quotes condemn kissing the black stone and circling the kaaba reciting mindless, repetitive prayers like the pagans.”
moses put up a bronze idol which people started going to for a cure. you dumb ass.
how does circling the kaaba , UNDERSTANDING the prayers by REPEATING them and kissing a stone imply IDOLATRY?
define
idolatry
ʌɪˈdɒlətri/Submit
noun
the worship of idols.
synonyms: idol worship, idolatrism, fetishism, iconolatry, icon worship; More
extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.
kissing out of RESPECT is different than going before a fukin BRONZE idol and awaiting a cure
”
The serpent was not put there to be an object of veneration. The israelites had turned it into an object of worship – just like muslims have turned kissing the black stone into a worship ritual.”
it was giving CURES. so how wasn’t it an object of VENERATION.
they only turned it because of what abilities it had
no muslim gives SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES to a stone
“wouldn’t you smother and kiss a half naked jew if he appeared to you with holes in his hands and feet?”
“Actually, yes I would. ”
before your eyes is flesh
human being
blood
skin
“suffering servant”
holes
wounds
this is the OBJECT of your worship. the guy suffered , you turn it into “universal suffering”
this implies that you have extreme veneration, movement of the heart, worship, engendering feelings towards for this IDOL you worship
”
If someone you knew was supposed to be dead from the very wounds that his body is displaying and he had previously told you he would rise after being crucified as an atonement for sin, then yes I most certainly would worship him.”
you would take it as your god and creator of the universe!
you must be dumb not to realise this.
you would see it as your salvation just like catholics see mary as their salvation
how come you can do this for a human BODY and not allow one to kiss a STONE which has absolutely no power out of it?
“no muslim gives SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES to a stone”
Perhaps. The idolatry is in the reason for the veneration – your own sources reveal that the kissing the black stone was a pagan ritual. Muslims only kiss it because mihammed kissed it – you are idolizing a human being by venerating a stone solely because it was kissed by a man whose butt-hole you guys would sell your own daughters to sniff. Allah never tells muslims to kiss and caress a pagan object of worship.
“The idolatry is in the reason for the veneration – your own sources reveal that the kissing the black stone was a pagan ritual. Muslims only kiss it because mihammed kissed it – you are idolizing a human being by venerating a stone solely because it was kissed by a man whose butt-hole you guys would sell your own daughters to sniff.”
you hide under jesus’ butt hole and sniff holy ghost mon-sun thinking to yourself that you are saved from any sin you do. you are under jesus’ skirt , like coward , not facing up to the fact that you are polytheist and deserving of hell fire for your continued sins against your god.
at least they are unlike christians who turned the instrument /tool in to “power” and “love”
at least they didn’t turn gods salvation into a jew
idolising by following? they could have turned muhammad into angel or god incarnate or they could of turned his suffering into universal sacrificie , but they didn’t
“you hide under jesus’ butt hole and sniff holy ghost mon-sun thinking to yourself that you are saved from any sin you do.”
Show me one christian minister who says that we must sniff jesus’ butt-hole?
Intellect has already stated that he would give up his 9 year old daughter to be raped by your stone worshiping prophet – clearly he would sniff the prophet’s butthole if the prophet demanded it.
You said;
So, no, god did not die and your insistence that this is what christian believe is making you look silly.
I say;
Thanks be to God. Finally you have admitted God did not die for your sins Graham. This is a step in the right direction. Next time you will consider worshiping the only one God of Abraham who is not 3 anything. It is shift to Islam.
I can be pig because I am a creature and Paul Williams can be silly because he is also a creature. With all our silliness we do not worship any creature. Never, except the God of Jesus alone who Jesus said He(Jesus’s God) is the only true God. Said Jesus Christ.
But you worship a creature i.e. man who is a creature like the pig you called me. By worshiping a creature like me and a pig, then you worship someone like me a human being or you worship a pig.
Graham: “For some reason you and the muslims on this blog don’t understand the simple concept of the plural god.”
You know one prefix indicating plurality is poly, and another word for god is theos. Maybe Muslims just can’t make sense out of the simple concept of polytheism.
I don’t agree that jews don’t understand – pluralism of god is all over the OT, and several scholars now admit that plurality of god is a jewish concept derived from the plain meaning of the bible.
Graham
November 1, 2016 • 3:01 pm
Intellect
Muslims kiss and caress a stone, and walk around a tent muttering repetitive prayers like the pagans – nowhere in the OT or NT does it say to do this. In fact, nowhere in the quran does it say to do this. Muslims practice this idolatry because a human being told them to do so
I say;
Give me one Muslim who says “Kaaba is God” or “I worship Kaaba”
Give me one Jew who says “western wall is God” or “I worship western wall”
Christians like you say Jesus is God and you worship Jesus.
If you do not know this difference you are creature worship has destroyed your brain.
Jews and Muslims Go to the sacred place of worship like Kaaba and western wall to pray to the one God of Abraham without mentioning Kaaba or western wall but to kiss the place of worship like how they kiss their wives and children because they love this place of worship which was the original place of worship build to serve only one God of Abraham.
Christians on the other hand will worship the crosses, statues, virgin Mary etc. as manifestation and emanation of God because they believed part of God is here on earth and part of God is in heaven. That is incarnation.
Jews and Muslims do not believe in incarnation, so they do not believe Kaaba or western wall is God at all
The kaaba is not mentioned anywhere in the Old or New testaments. There is no evidence that it has any relationship to judeo-christian worship, and no evidence exists that it was built by jews.
You said;
The kaaba is not mentioned anywhere in the Old or New testaments. There is no evidence that it has any relationship to judeo-christian worship, and no evidence exists that it was built by jews.
I say;
With regards to Jews, I am talking about the western wall in Jerusalem where Jews bow down to pray, kiss, put their prayers written on papers into its holes etc. and it does not mean they worship it just like Muslims do not worship Kaaba.
Kaaba is in Mecca, Saudi Arabia and not Jerusalem, but Muslims believed Abraham built the Kaaba as a place to worship the only true God of Abraham. we just visit there to pray but we do not worship Kaaba.
Intellect
No god did not cease to exist – all christians believe that. I’m not sure why you getting engorged from that.
God’s fleshly incarnate word died and was resurrected.
You can be a pig as much as you want – no skin off my back. You can even be a woman and call yourself Caitlyn for all I care.
I say;
We are talking about God not dying according to the Bible and you accept that and God did not die for your sins and not a word or phrase change like “cease to exist”.
We are talking about God does not die
God does not die
God does not die
God does not die
which the Bible clearly said.
not
cease to exist
Back to topic. God will not die said the Bible and you agreed. So God did not die for your sins. Christians when cornered, will change words, phrase, sentence, twists scripture to put their creature i.e. idol worship in it. This is not blog for that.
It can be done on David Wood or Sam Shamoun site.
“Only muslims believe that christians believe that. No christian believes that god ceased to exist.”
since you are a dumb greyhound gentile pig
immortal
ɪˈmɔːt(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
living forever; never dying or decaying.
contrast to death
what you seem to be implying is that as long as god does not “cease to exist”
he can get KILLED a thousand times
murdered a thousand times
dethroned by satan a thousand times
as long as he doesn’t cease to exist he can make elijah IMMORTAL (funny elijah was ALIVE while your god was dying lol) and beam up elijahs life next to gods own.
death implies to lose control of your life
fully god and fully flesh united , 1 person fully experienced LOSS of life and CONTROL
so yes, in a sense it CEASED in performing what a God always has CONTROL over.
Exactly. God did not die – the incarnate flesh of the word of god died. God does not cease to exist.
Only muslims believe that christians believe that. No christian believes that god ceased to exist.
Why can’t you guys get that simple doctrine? Geez, you guys are dumb.
I say;
“Exactly. God did not die”-Graham
“die-the incarnate flesh of the word died” -Graham
Graham. I will take your first statement as you agreed. God did not die for your sins.
The second statement is rubbish if you believe the first one.
It is like an idol worshiper saying
“when Haile Selassie, elephant, monkey, snake etc. died it is the incarnate flesh that died, but the monkey, elephant, man etc. did not die.
Graham, you want us to believe this nonsense? You brain is washed and damaged if you think we will accept this nonsense.
“Show me one christian minister who says that we must sniff jesus’ butt-hole?”
his name is minister jesus
quote :
Likewise, at the so-called Last Supper, Jesus attempted to overwrite the Pesach with his own narrative. A day that was dedicated to remembering God’s removal of Israel from Exodus was now to be a day to commemorate Jesus’ death. Jesus is taking something that refers one to God, a day set aside eternally just for this purpose, and repurposing it to make it about himself. This is far from your claim that he always referred people to Hashem. In fact, he is taking a memorial that does refer people to Hashem and now making it to refer to himself. He exalts himself over God, the antithesis of your assertion.
The Church continues to exalt Jesus over God in the same manner, of course. Shavuot has become for the Church, Pentecost. A day dedicated to celebrating God granting Israel a most precious gift is to become a day about receiving the ability to speak a foreign language without having to learn. Shabbat is not about honoring the Creator but the supposed resurrection. And one may read the works of various counter-counter-missionaries to see how they relate the festivals to Jesus. The things meant to focus the nation of priests on their God are now rewritten by the Church to focus humanity on Jesus. How reminiscent of the one who “shall attempt to change the sacred seasons and the law” (Dan. 7.24).
When a man wishes to follow Jesus, but needs to bury his father, Jesus exalts himself, yet again. By telling the man to “let the dead bury the dead” he is telling the man to dishonor his father, contrary to the Law of Hashem. He also ignores that it is a mitzvah to bury the dead. Jesus again exalts himself over Hashem.
And, in fact, the way he interposes himself between Man and God is to draw one’s attention away from Hashem and to himself. When he asserts that no one comes to the Father except through himself, he has contravened the Torah and exalted himself with base arrogance. He has attempted to seize the honor one owes God and direct it to himself. He has attempted to capture the devotion one owes his Creator and keep it for himself.
In short, he has not referred one to Hashem. He has attempted to take attention from Hashem and exalt himself. He has attempted to enthrone himself in the hearts of humanity rather than the One to Whom is due all devotion, gratitude, and obedience. He pretended his own words were superior to those of Hashem, called himself “Lord of the Sabbath” and retooled Pesach to be about himself. Your thesis falls.
When humans die, the soul/spirit separates from the body and goes to either heaven or hell.
Since God (as God, before the incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Trinity) – is Spirit, Sovereign, invisible, non-physical, death does not apply to God. That is what the passage means – God cannot be destroyed or cease to exist. God as God by nature cannot die because death means having a created existance (a body). 1 Timothy 6:16 is about God as God as not being able to be destroyed or ceasing to exist, since bodily death does not apply to God as God.
But when the 2nd person of the Trinity – the Word (John 1:1, 1:14), the eternal Son (John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8) took on a body and a human nature, then as Jesus the Messiah the human, He was able to die. But death does not affect the divine nature, since it is indestructible, eternal, all powerful. The Son has two natures, the human body died and was buried, but the human soul / spirit lives on, as even you guys as Muslims must believe. (The souls of the dead in Islam, as far as I understand await in the grave until the day of resurrection/ judgment.)
So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die, and paid for our sins, because of His powerful atoning death and His powerful resurrection from the dead.
“So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die..”
“When humans die, the soul/spirit separates from the body and goes to either heaven or hell.”
2 natures, 1 person went to hell?
was god the divine being + god the human SOUL (forget the flesh) went to hell?
this means god is not IMMORTAL
“Since God (as God, before the incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Trinity) – is Spirit, Sovereign, invisible, non-physical, death does not apply to God. ”
wrong. your god is . 2 natures, 1 person. therefore , the one person DIED. he dies in his divinity and his humanity because he is 1 person .
“That is what the passage means – God cannot be destroyed or cease to exist.”
sorry, you are wrong.
2 natures, 1 person
united.
one
not separated. not divided .
fused
your god. through his divine powers and human flesh + human soul
SIMULTANEOUSLY
was roasting in hell and butchered by human beings
minus the flesh from god, then what is left
it is the invisible part which was experiencing all the human nature and human suffering
the invisible part with divine powers became
1 person
therefore , your god was SUFFERING in his divinity and humanity
same same
” God as God by nature cannot die because death means having a created existance (a body). 1 Timothy 6:16 is about God as God as not being able to be destroyed or ceasing to exist, since bodily death does not apply to God as God.”
what a joke
2 natures, 1 PERSON
1 PERSON
1 PERSON
1 PERSON
not two SEPARATE PERSONS
1 PERSON
you are doing the following
you are saying
the 2 natures , 1 person
is really
1 nature, 1 person
and the 1 person with divine nature plays tiddly winks while PERSONLESS FLESH IS BEING NAILED
wrong!
2 natures, 1 person dying and died.
”
But when the 2nd person of the Trinity – the Word (John 1:1, 1:14), the eternal Son (John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8) took on a body and a human nature, then as Jesus the Messiah the human, He was able to die.”
back to
2 natures , 1 person
now you are UNITING the 2 natures again and saying the 1 person i.e the divine + human “was able to DIE”
now it is not PERSONLESS nature anymore
keep on switching
” But death does not affect the divine nature, since it is indestructible, eternal, all powerful.”
now you DIVORCED the 2 natures from each other and have 1 nature as PERSONLESS
very thanks
” The Son has two natures, the human body died and was buried, but the human soul / spirit lives on, as even you guys as Muslims must believe. (The souls of the dead in Islam, as far as I understand await in the grave until the day of resurrection/ judgment.)”
so is god the divine and invisible being HUMAN SOUl/spirit ?
”
So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die, and paid for our sins, because of His powerful atoning death and His powerful resurrection from the dead.”
i don’t care. a lot of christians who are not from your pagan version believe he was butchered in hell . one chinese evangelist said he met hitler in hell and forgave him.
No, He did not. He may have gone to Hades ( I Peter 3:19) and led captivity captive (Ephesians 4:8-9), taking the OT saints to heaven with Him, as Abraham was there in the peaceful/ restful part of Hades in Luke 16:19-31. In verse 22-23 and 26 shows there is a chasm between the 2 places.
Dr. Wayne Grudem has an excellent article on the phrase in some of the creeds, “He descended into Hell”:
” But death does not affect the divine nature ” !
Didn’t he come to earth to die for your sins?
What is the reason that he took a human body ?
What is the ” great sacrifice” ? then?
Read Hebrews 2:14-18 and meditate on it. Also John 10:18
Yes, He took on a human body and nature and lived for 33 years a perfect sinless life, and by dying in our place as a human, paid the price for us who deserved punishment.
Read Athanasius’ great work, “On the Incarnation of the Word”
Yes, God has commanded against human sacrifices and hates them, since we are human and it is unjust for one human to kill another human as a human sacrifice and God hates the paganism in those religions because they are false religions and false gods.
But He can chose to become human and pay the price for us if He wants to.
John 10:18
Then why did He command Abraham to sacrifice his son? (Surah 37:102-107)
We also believe it was a test, a trial – Genesis 22:1
But why?
Why not choose a different trial, test, right?
Seems weird to test someone on something that is inherently wrong and horrible and disgusting, right?
No, there is no contradiction; and I have thought about this a lot and still do think about it. If you read my whole post, my point is clear.
1 Timothy 6:16 cannot be talking about Jesus’ divine nature, since the divine nature cannot be destroyed. God as God cannot die means He cannot be destroyed or cease to exist, since technically death requires a created being/ a body/ something physical – death means the separation of the spirit / soul from the body and then the body rots in the grave.
Since Christians believe God the eternal Son took on an additional nature, and human nature and body, (John 1:1, 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 2:14-18), then Jesus can and did die.
There is no contradiction.
As a Muslim, do you believe that when humans die, their souls / spirits continue to exist in the grave? yes
So, death for a human does not mean “ceasing to exist” but separation of soul from spirit.
The soul / spirit of Jesus was separated from His body, then on the 3rd day He re-entered that same body and rose from the dead, proving He was God in the flesh, the eternal Son of God; the Word of God; the Kalimat’Allah.
“Yes, He took on a human body and nature and lived for 33 years a perfect sinless life, and by dying in our place as a human, paid the price for us who deserved punishment.”
a lot of people go to their deaths willingly and don’t need jesus to pay any price.
quote :
And ironically, Rabbi, that is exactly what Christians REALLY believe when they are not trying to convert people, but living their life in a cycle of sin and repentance. How many times have we seen the bumper sticker that reads, “Christians are not Perfect, just Forgiven”?
This is the catch-22 they face. If God can forgive and welcome an imperfect person, then what is the need for Jesus? On the other hand, if they are still sinning even after accepting Jesus (and ALL of them are, by their own admission), then on what basis are they fit for God’s presence, if sinless perfection is the qualifying criteria? Think about this: if it is about “the blood of Jesus” and “Jesus dying for our sins”, then there is no need for repentance or even right-doing, since God does not consider your sin, but Jesus’ supposed perfection in your place.
That is why Hebrews chapters 8-10 exposes the fatal flaw of Christian doctrine and the NT. No reason to even bother with the rest of the arguments. Christianity is self-defeating on its most basic premise.
“1 Timothy 6:16 cannot be talking about Jesus’ divine nature, since the divine nature cannot be destroyed. ”
1 person with divine nature
“God as God cannot die means He cannot be destroyed or cease to exist,”
1 person with divine nature
”
since technically death requires a created being/ a body/ something physical – death means the separation of the spirit / soul from the body and then the body rots in the grave.”
1 person + divine nature + 1 body + human soul + human spirit
did 100 % person who is FULLY god become FULLY human
now the SAME person with divine powers/nature = fully human
since this person did not have FULLY human nature, then when jesus said “my soul is deeply troubled…”
then the PERSON with divine nature said and the fully human nature said
”
So, death for a human does not mean “ceasing to exist” but separation of soul from spirit.
The soul / spirit of Jesus was separated from His body, then on the 3rd day He re-entered that same body and rose from the dead, proving He was God in the flesh, the eternal Son of God; the Word of God; the”
kalimatushaytaan .
body contains divine person who is also a human person i.e god thinks like human and like himself ?
so human person who is @ the same time divine person was separated from body
1 person who knows he is divine and human (he thinks like divine and human) separates from body
what it seem you are doing is you are playing games
“So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die..”
Spot the contradiction!
—————–
My brother, tell them again and again and loud that NATURE, NATURE, NATURE, NATURE, NATURE is not a person and nature does not die. It is a person that dies. Very intelligent Christians like Ken Temple will sell their conscience and intellect to argue that nature died.
Ken Temple
So, Ken it is a nature that died for your sins not God. Why do you not tell the truth and say God died for people sins? So God is a nature and it is his nature that died for your sins not He Himself. Ken excuse me you told a lie here to say God died for people sins instead of telling the truth that it is only His nature.
What is nature
Nature
Nature, in the broadest sense, is the natural, physical, or material world or universe. “Nature” can refer to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. The study of nature is a large part of science. Although humans are part of nature, human activity is often understood as a separate category from other natural phenomena.
na·ture
ˈnāCHər/Submit
noun
1.
the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.
“the breathtaking beauty of nature”
synonyms: the natural world, Mother Nature, Mother Earth, the environment; More
2.
the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.
“helping them to realize the nature of their problems”
synonyms: essence, inherent/basic/essential qualities, inherent/basic/essential features, character, complexion More
Ken Temple, convert to Islam today and do not sell your intellect to Christianity that always not tell the truth in so many instances from God being a 3 persons being to God dying.
Nature is a phenomena, characteristics, natural, physical etc. of the world and it is not PERSON, MAN OR GOD to die for your sins.
You keep not telling the truth by saying “nature” died for your sins which is an impossibility running away from the God died for your sins which you know is a big lie by Christians because the Bible refute them clearly that God does not die.
It is a being/person with intellect, consciousness that has weight and occupy space that dies and human beings die and either Go to heaven or hell(may God forbid).
Nature is not a person and does not have consciousness or intellect like a person and nature do not die and judged. God will judge all persons but God will not judge “nature” because natures do not have soul and body like humans i.e. humans who die.
It is a lie to say nature died. It is a lie to say nature died for your sins. You will initially say God died for your sins. If you are corrected from that impossibility, you then say it is the human part, when corrected from that you then take the last resort “nature” died for your sins.
For your information both God does not die and “nature” is not a being to die for anyone’s sins. Come to Islam Ken. The “experience” you are having can be acquired by anyone who is not a Christian. Satan can give you a wonderful feeling and you will be running away from the truth in favour of the “experience” that idol worshipers, Sufis, voodoo priest, Buddhists, Hindus, followers or Joel Olsteen, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar etc.
are all experiencing the “experience” and it could be satanic if you do not follow the truth that “nature”do not die and the God of Abraham is one and only true God said Jesus.
Ken, nature is not human or God but characteristics or feature and it is just like attributes. Attributes, feature, nature etc. are not God Himself and do not have consciousness, some are not substance and do not have weight and occupy space.
When I attend natures call or when a person attends natures call will the nature die and judged by God? Will a nature die? and judged by God? Or is it a person who is judged by God?
One of God’s nature is to create. Do mean “create” died for your sins another nature of God is “to show mercy”. “Show mercy” as God’s nature died for your sins? I am asking all these because you claim “God’s nature” died for your sins.
When Jesus visits toilet to attend natures call. Does that s*** died for your sins?
Human Nature
Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics—including ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—which humans tend to have naturally. The questions of whether there truly are fixed characteristics, what these natural characteristics are, and what causes them are among the oldest and most important questions in philosophy and science. The concept of human nature is traditionally contrasted not only with unusual human characteristics, but also with characteristics which are derived from specific cultures, and upbringings. The “nature versus nurture” debate is a well-known modern discussion about human nature in the natural sciences.
Paul, some thoughts on human sacrifice. Clearly, God hates it. No doubt what Christ went through was despicable to anyone with a sense of justice. What had He done, precisely, that warranted such treatment? He told the truth. He was truth. I think if the religious leaders of that place and time were not personally threatened by this unknown, impoverished, not politically connected person, He would not have become their target. What had He done? He was Himself.
“There are several reasons why the sacrifice of Christ on the cross does not violate the prohibition against human sacrifice. First, Jesus wasn’t merely human. If He were, then His sacrifice would have also been a temporary one because one human life couldn’t possibly cover the sins of the multitudes who ever existed. Neither could one finite human life atone for sin against an infinite God. The only viable sacrifice must be an infinite one, which means only God Himself could atone for the sins of mankind. Only God Himself, an infinite Being, could pay the penalty owed to Himself. This is why God had to become a Man and dwell among men (John 1:14). No other sacrifice would suffice.
Second, God didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Rather, Jesus, as God incarnate, sacrificed Himself. No one forced Him. He laid down His life willingly, as He made clear speaking about His life: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18). God the Son sacrificed Himself to God the Father and thereby fulfilled all the requirements of the Law. Unlike the temporary sacrifices, Jesus’ once-for-all-time sacrifice was followed by His resurrection. He laid down His life and took it up again, thereby providing eternal life for all who would ever believe in Him and accept His sacrifice for their sins. He did this out of love for the Father and for all those the Father has given Him (John 6:37–40).” gotQuestions?org
“Second, God didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Rather, Jesus, as God incarnate, sacrificed Himself. No one forced Him.”
is this really the case ? if god in christianity did not kill himself and pilate saved him, then god would have committed a sin, because he intentionally sent himself to calm his own wrath. how can a god reneg on his own sacrificial ritual ? so god is in a way FORCED to do his own justice otherwise he would live a sad life and grieve and repent for sending everyone to hell. god BOXED himself into two CHOICES.
god was limited to two choices
either he kill everyone (he will do that anyway because people are destined to hell) or he violently do a RITUAL killing of :
jesus’ blood is created
his body is created
his bones are created
the human soul + spirit = created
christians say that god incarnated and his divine nature remained “alive”
so what was “jesus” then? a robot with the label ” god” ?
mark 10.45 clearly use pagan greek god appeasing language to calm and cool off a diety
if jesus’ is 1 PERSON, 2 natures, then the SAME person LIKE the pagans is willingly ALLOWING his other nature to receive bloody and violent torture.
everytime a hebrew cut off the neck of a sheep, he went home GUILTLESS
because he did a guilt offering and that calmed him down and he thought “my sins and guilt has been atoned”
so it is clear that “jesus”, 1 PERSON, 2 nature is receiving COOLING down and calm after the ritual slaughter of his other nature . in other words god is COOLING down .
“it PLEASED god to…”
654 [e]
ḥā·p̄êṣ
חָפֵ֤ץ
Yet it pleased
Verb
so logically 1 PERSOn, 2 natures, was happy to CRUSH himself and to receive calming down from the act.
Diogenes Laertius :
They tell us that the wise man will for reasonable cause make his own exit from life, on his country’s behalf or for the SAKE OF his FRIENDS, or if he suffer intolerable pain, mutilation, or incurable disease
“since self sacrifice is a form of violence ( a violence against the self ), then it is clear that jesus is portrayed as glorifying SELF-VIOLENCE.”
2 natures, 1 person and SAME person receiving satisfaction
You said;
There is no contradiction.
As a Muslim, do you believe that when humans die, their souls / spirits continue to exist in the grave? yes
So, death for a human does not mean “ceasing to exist” but separation of soul from spirit.
The soul / spirit of Jesus was separated from His body, then on the 3rd day He re-entered that same body and rose from the dead, proving He was God in the flesh, the eternal Son of God; the Word of God; the Kalimat’Allah.
I say;
Tell Dr. James White that he can pull fast one on us by changing words, phrase, sentence, scriptures and everything possible like Christians had done to deny the truth.
What is the Truth that you are hiding and denying?
The Bible said God is immortal-He does not die. So God did not die for your sins. You change the word immortal-does not die to “cease to exist”. The Bible did not use “cease to exist” but the Bible used immortal-does not die.
So God did not die for your sins because the Bible said God would not die at all. You are now comparing God to man in grave but you accuse me of comparing God to man when I said every no person can be a person without being a being i.e. human being, divine being, angelic being, demonic being, satanic being etc.
Nature is not a person or a being and so nature do not die. Ken, no matter how you define death God does not die but human beings die.
————————
“But He can chose to become human and pay the price for us if He wants to.”
I say;
He can chose to become monkey, elephant, snake, man(Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba etc.) to pay the price for us if He wants to as He did in the past to reveal Himself as a Hindu God, voodoo God, Buddhist God etc.
How do you know that God did not at a certain point in time revealed Himself as a Hindu God?-Dr. Shabbir Ally.
Paul, pretty sound thinking here. C. S. Lewis was pretty famous for that. Saying more with fewer words than many.
“Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean, that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world Who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.”
Hope that’s not preaching. I think the words, “when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.” ring true. I cannot find anyone at any time who comes close to making statements like Christ did. He is altogether unique, distinct and profoundly different and mind-blowing, from all that I know. People with an intact personality simply don’t go around saying things like, “I am the way the life and the truth. No man comes to the Father except by me.” Do you know of any exceptions?
So. The post does not represent Christianity, yet the title of the blog is clearly that Christianity is debunked. So, this is of course a challenge to Christianity, not the flawed opinion of some random Christian, LOL. You easily contradict yourself. If one asked myself regarding this issue, I would answer Jesus sacrificed Himself because He is SINLESS, He had no sins and so He can take on our sins, unlike man, because all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Might as well delete your post considering it is misleading, LOL
When humans die, the soul/spirit separates from the body and goes to either heaven or hell.
Since God (as God, before the incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Trinity) – is Spirit, Sovereign, invisible, non-physical, death does not apply to God. That is what the passage in 1 Tim. 6:16 means – God cannot be destroyed or cease to exist. God as God by nature cannot die because death means having a created existance (a body). 1 Timothy 6:16 is about God as God as not being able to be destroyed or ceasing to exist, since bodily death does not apply to God as God.
But when the 2nd person of the Trinity – the Word (John 1:1, 1:14), the eternal Son (John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8) took on a body and a human nature, then as Jesus the Messiah the human, He was able to die. But death does not affect the divine nature, since it is indestructible, eternal, all powerful. The Son has two natures, the human body died and was buried, but the human soul / spirit lives on, as even you guys as Muslims must believe. (The souls of the dead in Islam, as far as I understand await in the grave until the day of resurrection/ judgment.)
So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die (but death does not affect His Divine Nature, per 1 Tim. 6:16), and paid for our sins, because of His powerful atoning death and His powerful resurrection from the dead.
Because of His divine nature being invisible and all powerful, He was able to raise Himself up from the dead (working in harmony with the Father and the Holy Spirit).
John 10:18
“No one takes My life from Me; I lay it down voluntarily on My own authority; and I take it up again on My own authority . . . ”
John 2:19-22
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
Hey Paul, perhaps you missed my response to you. Here it is copy and pasted;
So. The post does not represent Christianity, yet the title of the blog is clearly that Christianity is debunked. So, this is of course a challenge to Christianity, not the flawed opinion of some random Christian, LOL. You easily contradict yourself. If one asked myself regarding this issue, I would answer Jesus sacrificed Himself because He is SINLESS, He had no sins and so He can take on our sins, unlike man, because all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Might as well delete your post considering it is misleading, LOL
I just re-checked the entire comment chain on your blog — nope, no reply. You have not addressed my UTTER DEBUNKING of your misleading post, which will continue to lie to people if it stays up. Sad.
Blogging Theology 
okay, did i just read that the christians are saying that god self abused himself with his own divine punishment?
this is crazy stuff
are we to believe that 3 individual persons are using divine wrath and pouring it on one of the persons within the same group which is exercising wrath?
“only god could pay such an infinite penalty”
i am trying to figure out how he becomes object of his own wrath
did he part ways with it?
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This is the nature of falsehood. It’s destroyed easily.
Thank Allah for Islam.
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“Jesus is God but he is not the whole of God. I can see the pacific ocean from my home but i can’t see the whole of the pacific ocean”
if you get a jug and collect water from the ocean, then are you still seeing the pacific ocean when you stare at the jug?
jesus is a part which is not fully god. it is only a part which you are viewing from your home. thanks for telling everyone that your god is not complete/100 % fully god
jesus is not god, he is a created thing.
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“When we look at Jesus we truly see God. But we dont see the whole of God. Its impossible to see the whole of God.”
so how come he don’t sandwich the 3 persons and pack himself in a human body? i thought all things are possible for god?
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You guys are funny.
God has absolute authority over all aspects of creation. He alone defines what death is and who may or may not live (another reason christians are not commanded to kill).
God has the power to make his Word incarnate into flesh and allow it to die and be resurrected.
There is no refutation of the incarnation here – just juvenile reasoning.
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The Christian in the post clearly says God died several times. This idea is contrary to common sense and the teaching of the Quran and Bible (see the 1 Timothy passages).
What you have done is redefine the problem. No longer is it God who dies but ‘God has the power to make his Word die’ clearly an entity other than God who you call an “it”.
If “it” is a being other than God then of course it can die. But that is not the claim being made in the post which is that “God dies”.
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Paul Williams
“The Christian in the post clearly says God died several times. This idea is contrary to common sense and the teaching of the Quran and Bible (see the 1 Timothy passages).
What you have done is redefine the problem. No longer is it God who dies but ‘God has the power to make his Word die’ clearly an entity other than God who you call an “it”.”
LOL..
That’s what I mean by juvenile reasoning.
Human flesh dies, god doesn’t. There is no redefinition at all.
“If “it” is a being other than God then of course it can die.”
LOL.
Circular reasoning is your strong point. You have to show your working out on that one – your argument is that god can’t die, so god can’t die. That shows no understanding of christian doctrine, and an even more serious inability to reason logically.
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Human flesh dies, god doesn’t. There is no redefinition at all.”
So now you have shifted your ground again!
Now you say it was just the human part of Jesus who died – not his God part.
But this makes a mockery of the belief that Jesus died on the cross, as only part of him did. So now you have a human sacrifice which according to God in the Jewish scriptures is an abomination.
Your evasions and wriggling around indicate you agree with me that God does not die. And thus the exposition of Christian doctrine in the post is easily refuted by 4 simple words:
GOD DOES NOT DIE.
QED.
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Paul
As expected, you avoided correcting the error in your reasoning. Christian doctrine says that god can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as the Father in heaven.
You have to refute that, and no muslim ever has.
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You comment is utterly irrelevant to my post.
You do two things repeatedly on this blog:
1) you manoeuvre to change the subject and then refute your straw man
2) you engage in childish ad hominems.
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“God has the power to make his Word incarnate into flesh and allow it to die and be resurrected.”
1. was god impressed by human sacrifice and blood offering so much that he decided to experience what humans have been doing for thousands of years? is god only human? you know it is not impressive at all that your poughter god performs a self sacrifice. give a regular human being powers over his life and death and i am sure millions would kill themselves to save people. if they can do it without divine powers, then they are more impressive than a guy who moans like a COWARD and is reluctant in garden to perform self sacrifice.
lot people do not moan like a bitch before going to their deaths
for example :
saddam hussain did not moan like a bitch and begged god to remove the cup
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Paul
You allow your muslim readers to post insulting and obscene name-calling all the time and almost never rein them in.
If ad hominems are a problem, it is because you permit them.
Regardless, you are changing the subject to avoid addressing your logical errors.
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Graham do you think ad hominens are an acceptable practice?
As you have been refuted and schooled I see no reason to keep feeding your appetite to troll by replying any further.
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what happened to achilles comment?
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It was deleted by me. He is banned from this blog for being a troll.
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Being a troll….it was his Achilles heel. 🙂
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Lol
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“But this makes a mockery of the belief that Jesus died on the cross, as only part of him did. So now you have a human sacrifice which according to God in the Jewish scriptures is an abomination.”
god who is invisible BECOMES visible and has feelings just like all humans do
you have A = god and B = man
they want god to exist as A and B @ the same time
so 2 natures existing in 1 person at the same time
so when the 1 person is being impaled to the cross, then it only make sense that his 2 united natures are FULLY experiencing what it is to be nailed
otherwise you have a costume and you labelled it “god”
otherwise you have 1 person + human nature MINUS the divine nature lol
but what is god without his POWERS? costume?
so they must admit that
fully god and fully man (united in 1 person)
experiences FULL wrath of human beings
what happens is that it gets even worse than this. when the costume is taken off, then god gets roasted in hell
who is experiencing the roasting in hell? the costume? the human soul? the divine person who experiences the human soul?
as can be seen, they cannot disconnect the united natures and say that what is happening to one is happening to the other, otherwise when only one is experiencing, then the question is
“WHERE did god go ?”
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“god who is invisible BECOMES visible and has feelings just like all humans do
you have A = god and B = man
they want god to exist as A and B @ the same time
so 2 natures existing in 1 person at the same time
so when the 1 person is being impaled to the cross, then it only make sense that his 2 united natures are FULLY experiencing what it is to be nailed
otherwise you have a costume and you labelled it “god”
otherwise you have 1 person + human nature MINUS the divine nature”
What is your point? is there one? God cannot experience what his creation experiences? Humans have experiences that god doesn’t know about? Allah sounds limited. LOL.
“but what is god without his POWERS? costume?”
He’s god incarnated into flesh but still god in heaven. Don’t you know christian doctrine?
what happens is that it gets even worse than this. when the costume is taken off, then god gets roasted in hell
You’ve got to stop listening to charlatan islamic apologists. God defeat death and hell, that’s what happened. Then he was resurrected.
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“He’s god incarnated into flesh but still god in heaven. Don’t you know christian doctrine?”
i am sure that even you don’t understand your stupid nonsensical beliefs
all you are doing is creating a flesh existence for a human being , labelling it “god” even though it has absolutely no experience of what god is
for example , the person on earth doesn’t have access to the god in heaven
he sees like a human
eats like one
and hears like one
this means , you have a human being , who you give a label too
if the god with divine powers has full access to what it is like eating, crapping, farting, sleeping , pain etc then why not say that god the divine being fully experienced as “god in heaven” ?
“You’ve got to stop listening to charlatan islamic apologists. God defeat death and hell, that’s what happened. Then he was resurrected.”
your god did not DEFEAT death
if i put someone in a coma and that person came out of coma after 3 days, then did that person defeat coma?
and hell? hell roasted your god.
it seems like you are creating new EXISTENCES for your god in different places
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We don’t die either. Our bodies do. Our spirit’s live on.
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we must be immortal. i must be god almighty.
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“We don’t die”
lol you will find out one day if that is true
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I have no doubt whatsoever that I will not die. This shell that houses the true me is crumbling, all too quickly. It will return to the elements very soon. Life is a vapor. In no time it will be all gone. But, my essence will not perish. It will go to heaven or hell.
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We are not eternal. He is.
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immortal
immortal
ɪˈmɔːt(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
living forever; never dying or decaying.
if god dies and fully experiences death then there was a time he did not live forever.
god was dying then god died.
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But your bible says God is immortal, he never dies.
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Indeed. Only God is immortal. Ergo Christianity is refuted.
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e·ter·nal
əˈtərn(ə)l/
adjective
lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
God never began and He will never end.
Immortal
living forever; never dying or decaying.
Only God never began.
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Paul Williams
“But your bible says God is immortal, he never dies.”
You mean as in “god ceased to exist”?
WHere does the bible say that?
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quote :
“But your bible says God is immortal, he never dies.”
You mean as in “god ceased to exist”?
WHere does the bible say that?
end quote
when you die, can you cook a meal or drive a car or wear a mask which makes you look like a clown?
2 natures, 1 person STOPPED doing something
2 natures, 1 person LOST control of something
being a god who has 2 natures, god LOST control over something he had control over before
if you disagree , then why do you say god added on an additional nature?
was it a plaster he put on for fun?
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edward
Is there an NT quote in all of that incoherent raving in which it is written that god ceased to exist?
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“Is there an NT quote in all of that incoherent raving in which it is written that god ceased to exist?”
one guy in hyde park said that the greek gods were true gods because no matter how many times they died , they always came back to life again and again.
i mean if we go by your clownish understanding then god could die a hundred times. even give his powers to the next man.
immortal is defined as something that does not experience something that prevents it to live
it does not experience finiteness in its knowledge, sight, hearing and power , otherwise it would not be powerful to the fullest degree i.e ULTIMATE
immortal . ultimate. nothing about . the stopping point .
1 person, 2 natures fully experienced the pains and pangs of death, you attributed this crap to the ALMIGHTY?
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“god ceased to exist”
did 1 person ,2 natures die as a MAN?
did the 1 person DIE as any human being ?
did 1 person FULLY experience death?
this 1 person = FULLy god + fully human
if you say that only the human nature died, then WHO is the 1 person LOL ?
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edward
So your answer is that , no, the NT does not say that god ceased to exist?
Dawah fails again.
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“So your answer is that , no, the NT does not say that god ceased to exist?”
” I put to death and I bring to life,”
just out of curiosity can god put him self to death ? lets assume he did not add flesh to himself, then can god put himself to death?
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edward
that is a really dumb question. I’m still waiting for that NT quote where they say god ceased to exist.
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personally i don’t care if you or anyone thinks my questions are dumb. i am a happy man.
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sweet 🙂
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edward
“personally i don’t care if you or anyone thinks my questions are dumb. i am a happy man.”
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doesn’t isaiah 53 say that the suffering servant was ugly mofo who looked deformed?
i have no problem with deformed people, but you just made fun of your “saviour”
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Graham
November 1, 2016 • 10:54 am
Paul
As expected, you avoided correcting the error in your reasoning. Christian doctrine says that god can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as the Father in heaven.
You have to refute that, and no muslim ever has
I say;
You can refute Man God Emperor Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba and other men Gods idols that are God incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as a God.
You have to refute that, and Christians never has. Christians are worshiping God Man and believed it is not refutable just like Rastafarians and Hindus and other God men are worshiping God Men and think it is not refutable.
Worshiping a creature i.e. man and think it is irrefutable, is the most silly thing to say by not knowing that it is the same as Hindus worshiping creatures i.e. man, men, monkeys, elephants, etc. and some people like voodoos worshiping snakes others worshiping pigs etc. are claiming their creature worshiping which they think are God can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as God.
Graham, you are stupid not to know by your criteria you cannot refute voodoo snake worshipers or Hindus monkey that says god can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as God.
Thanks.
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Graham
As Paul has said, when a Christians is cornered, he either change the subject or change words. Do not worry Graham, I am here to tell you what Jesus commanded in the Bible. You have succeeded in changing this topic but you cannot by your criteria refute idols that their worshipers says are God incarnate in flesh whilst simultaneously existing as a God.
Your believe is idolatry and idol worshiping believe that God can become anything to love them and that God is irrefutable.
Thanks.
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“Christian doctrine says that god can incarnate as flesh whilst simultaneously existing as the Father in heaven.”
thats like giving only 1/3 of charity when you were told to give up the whole lol
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It’s also a heresy to say Jesus is the father
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God’s word pierces even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. A soul, a spirit, they are invisible and tough to define. I don’t believe personally that human beings are the sum total of electrical/chemical pulses. Our brains work due to electrochemical activity in a flesh and blood framework, but we are not merely those transactions, like an advanced robot. A robot lost in a forest is a shame. A child lost in a forest is a gut wrenching tragedy. The difference? We are more than just physical objects pounded out in a manufacturing plant, I think.
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quote:
God’s word pierces even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit. A soul, a spirit, they are invisible and tough to define.
end quote
god starts of as beginingless invisible being. you are just trying to confuse by using “soul and spirit”
god invisible being, becomes a weak and created visible person
most people will ask what in this invisible being became something?
is this invisible being IMMORTAL
then he isn’t dying, dies and died.
human being dying, dies and died
but if the invisible being is not dying, dies and died like human being, then the two are separate and not UNITED
for example
i can decide to end my seeing anything
i can choose to become blind
if god is all seeing, then can he choose to become blind? can god already see what he did not see and he already knows he did not see what he saw ?
does this make sense?
having god exist as blind person implies you picked up a costume and decided to label the eyes on it as “man god eyes ”
what you are doing is creating a FINITE existing for something you label as “god” even though you know it is not god because the blind man has nothing INHERENT within his blindness which can ALTERNATE and become ALL seeing again
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A man died on a cross. A man was spit upon, whipped, punched in the face. A son watched as his mother collapse in agony during his brutal death. A brother had no where to lay His head. A teacher finished His lessons. A human being thirsted. A friend was betrayed. A cousin and a nephew and an uncle perished. A brilliant student was massacred. A human being asked his Father to forgive those who viciously murdered him. A man asked, MY GOD, MY GOD, Where are you? Where have you gone? And He was God Almighty, hanging there, humiliated, naked, covered in dirt and grime and blood everywhere, beard yanked out, his back, butt and legs like ribbons of raw steak, and the reflection of his mom in his weary eyes. He let her watch and her pain killing him just like the spikes driven through his ankles. And He let that happen. He could have stopped it. He could have destroyed all His enemies in a flash of wrath. But, He bled and died for you and for me. And at that moment, He was reunited with the repentant scoundrel who died next to Him. That very same day they were in heaven together just as He said, while a few brave, very, very brave women and Joseph placed his lifeless, swollen, shattered remains in a tomb..
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“Where have you gone? And He was God Almighty, hanging there, humiliated, naked, covered in dirt and grime and blood everywhere, beard yanked out, his back, butt and legs like ribbons of raw steak, and the reflection of his mom in his weary eyes. He let her watch and her pain killing him just like the spikes driven through his ankles. And He let that happen. He could have stopped it. He could have destroyed all His enemies in a flash of wrath. But, He bled and died for you and for me. And at that moment, He was reunited with the repentant scoundrel who died next to Him. That very same day they were in heaven together just as He said, while a few brave, very, very brave women and Joseph placed his lifeless, swollen, shattered remains in a tomb..”
are you saying that fully divine being was fully experiencing what crucified people were experiencing ?
you said “he could have destroyed all his enemies in a flash…”
but you know he couldn’t do that because his prayer in the garden got rejected and then on the cross he asked his god ” why have you forsaken me” i.e, you always were helping me out with miracles ,what the hell happen now? save me from death like you did elijah and others.
but jesus died and never showed his face to the pharisees again.
your graphic description and obsession with suffering doesn’t give me a hard on at all. it is not impressive.
people are dying this minute
children are suffering
african dogs eat live animals
none of this gives me a hard on.
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So did God die?
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Hank L. Birnbaum III
November 1, 2016 • 11:27 am
We don’t die either. Our bodies do. Our spirit’s live on
Paul Williams
November 1, 2016 • 11:38 am
“We don’t die”
lol you will find out one day if that is true
lol
Thanks.
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And sending them to Bethlehem, he said: “Go, search carefully for the Child, and when you find Him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship Him.” After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stood over the place where the Child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with great delight.…Just then, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid! For behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people: Today in the City of David a Savior has been born to you. He is Christ the Lord!… And this shall be a sign unto you: Ye shall find the Babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men!” And it came to pass, when the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, “Let us now go even unto Bethlehem and see this thing which has come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.” And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the Babe lying in a manger. And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this Child. And all those who heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds.
Paul, We could have held Him in one hand
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Thanks for the cut and paste sermon
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“Paul, We could have held him in one hand”
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Aaaaaaaawwwaaa, Baby Jesus……so cute!
Can’t say I would worship someone who messed his nappies though.
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“Can’t say I would worship someone who messed his nappies though.”
don’t worry they have a solution to that. god farting and excreting was 2 natures, 1 person
but whenever you get embarrassed by godly act
just – the divine nature.
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Edward,
Ah yes, 2 natures, 1 person, thanks for reminding me. Seems there is always an illogical way out of a logical conundrum for Trinitarian Christians, very slippery that lot. But it still doesn’t address the core issue, that God never dies (1 Timothy) as PW has pointed out.
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edward
November 1, 2016 • 5:35 pm
“Can’t say I would worship someone who messed his nappies though.”
don’t worry they have a solution to that. god farting and excreting was 2 natures, 1 person
//but whenever you get embarrassed by godly act
just – the divine nature.//
Yes, Wev heard this argument too well, the problem is God is still and always God and Jesus remained and was always a human like anyone of us (Allah Al Qareeb) God is the nearest/within people) There was never such a thing as union.
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“When Jesus died on the cross the mercy of God did not become any greater. It could not become any greater, for it was already infinite. We get the odd notion that God is showing mercy because Jesus died. No–Jesus died because God is showing mercy. It was the mercy of God that gave us Calvary, not Calvary that gave us mercy. If God had not been merciful there would have been no incarnation, no babe in the manger, no man on a cross and no open tomb.” a w tozer
Death is separation. Physical death is when the soul-spirit separates from the physical body. So, in that sense, yes, God died, because Jesus was God in human form, and Jesus’ soul-spirit separated from His body (John 19:30). However, if by “death” we mean “a cessation of existence,” then, no, God did not die.
”When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.…”
He was fully God even while he grew inside His mother. To think that I could have held Him in one hand when He was so tiny and helpless but God Almighty blows my brains out. That’s when it hits home just how precious and special every one is; we all are, every baby, every child, teen, adult and every old person of inestimable value.
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A lot of words. Did God die? The bible says no. Christians say yes.
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Paul
This really is not that hard. Christian doctrine holds that god incarnated into human flesh whilst simultaneously existing outside of his creation.
So, no, god did not die and your insistence that this is what christian believe is making you look silly.
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I agree that I do sometimes look silly, but bear with me.
You agree with Islam and the Bible that God does not die.
Then why is it I’m told over and over by virtually all Christians that He did die? The post says he did. Jay Smith and his disciples say God died all the time. Are they all wrong and you are right?
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Paul
I don’t agree with islam at all – I agree with the OT and NT i which god is revealed as a single plural being.
And no christian says that god died – we say that the fleshly incarnation of god died, we just take it as a given that people comprehend the concept of incarnation.
For some reason you and the muslims on this blog don’t understand the simple concept of the plural god. That’s why you look so silly in your certainty.
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Like U said Graham I know many many Christians who loudly proclaim God died. Have you not heard of Jay Smith?
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“This really is not that hard. Christian doctrine holds that god incarnated into human flesh whilst simultaneously existing outside of his creation.”
was this god with or without divine nature?
was it god – divine nature who incarnated?
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Paul Williams
“Like U said Graham I know many many Christians who loudly proclaim God died. Have you not heard of Jay Smith?”
LOL. Stop trying to flog this dead horse.
No christian believes that god ceased to exist.
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Many many Christians say God died. Due to you limited exposure to the views of other Christians you are ignorant of this
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edward
“was this god with or without divine nature?
was it god – divine nature who incarnated?”
It was the word of god incarnated into flesh – simple.
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“was this god with or without divine nature?
was it god – divine nature who incarnated?”
It was the word of god incarnated into flesh – simple.”
was the “word of god” ( does the father become MUTE ?) with or without divine fukin nature?
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“No christian believes that god ceased to exist.”
he just became handicapped and disabled when he was being roasted in hell and subjected to his own wrath .
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Paul Williams
“Many many Christians say God died. Due to you limited exposure to the views of other Christians you are ignorant of this”
Show me one christian who says god ceased to exist……..
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That is not the question being discussed. Like I said before, you are well know for your wriggling and changing the subject by creating straw men.
Fact is you know few Christians. They don’t agree with you and preach that God died.
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edward
“was the “word of god” ( does the father become MUTE ?) with or without divine fukin nature?”
This is what islam does to your brain……
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Paul Williams
“That is not the question being discussed. Like I said before, you are well know for your wriggling and changing the subject by creating straw men.
Fact is you know few Christians. They don’t agree with you and preach that God died.”
You are moving the goalposts, Paul.
No christian says that god ceased to exist – that is what you are saying. Christian belief is false because god cannot cease to exist.
Else, what else could you possibly mean by the word “death”?
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No that is not what I am saying. You are putting words in my mouth. Creating straw men as usual. Fact is many Christians would have a poor view of your theology.
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Paul Williams
“No that is not what I am saying. You are putting words in my mouth. Creating straw men as usual.”
This is really easy, PAul. WHy don’t you explain what you are saying? Death means that you cease to exist doesn’t it? When you say “god died” do you mean that he ceased to exist?
I just want you to make some sense.
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I am making sense. If you do not understand I could not care less. However many evangelical minsters and preachers would reject your ramblings as heretical. I should be more concerned about that if I were you.
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“This is really easy, PAul. WHy don’t you explain what you are saying? Death means that you cease to exist doesn’t it? When you say “god died” do you mean that he ceased to exist?”
immortal
ɪˈmɔːt(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
living forever; never dying or decaying.
we know this won’t sink it to your pagan thick skull
never dying does not mean “ceased to exist”
it means it lives without feeling any TYPE of death
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Paul Williams
“I am making sense. If you do not understand I could not care less. However many evangelical minsters and preachers would reject your ramblings as heretical. I should be more concerned about that if I were you.”
Okay, paul. Quote me many evangelical ministers who say that god ceased to exist?
It should be easy since you assert my perspective runs counter to theirs…….
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“Okay, paul. Quote me many evangelical ministers who say that god ceased to exist?”
here is definition again
immortal
ɪˈmɔːt(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
living forever; never dying or decaying.
if the FLESH “ceased to exist” and god remained “living forever”
then did god DIE?
if the human PERSON with human nature “ceased to exist” and god with divine powers “living forever”
then did god die?
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lets assume your god became satan or bodiless ghost
okay,
the bodiless ghost DIED
it “ceased to exist”
is the god bit STILL IMMORTAL?
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edward
“if the human PERSON with human nature “ceased to exist” and god with divine powers “living forever”
then did god die?”
The human person with human a human nature did not cease to exist. Is that christian belief?
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“The human person with human a human nature did not cease to exist. Is that christian belief?”
dumb christian. was trying to make a point you clearly missed .
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edward
“dumb christian. was trying to make a point you clearly missed .”
I suspect a lot of people miss the point of your comments.
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Paul, again, I don’t mean to preach. Please tell me what that means, “to preach” vs. what you want. I am unclear about it.
I refer to His birth because we could use an argument along the same lines you are by saying that God can’t be born, right? God can’t be a young child? God can’t walk on two feet, He doesn’t breathe, He can’t eat food. But, He did do those things and of course He died. He set aside some divine attributes to become Man/God. That is a given. God is omnipresent, but Jesus wasn’t everywhere at once when He took the form of a human being. That’s why I said I could hold Him in one hand. God cannot be held in the hands of a human being. That is ridiculous. Of course not, but there He was, as told in the synoptic gospels, described in some detail as the One, God incarnate, as a new born baby.
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Paul, it is similar to the question, If you are really God’s son, prove it and come down from there.As a man, he couldn’t pull the stakes out and drop off the platform of His execution, and therefore because He didn’t, they were convinced He was just a mere man. But, He actually did have the wherewithal to come down, if He had decided to do so.
At best, my attempts to understand some of these things fall way short. But, I have been loved by something I never knew existed. Like the blind dude, I don’t know much, but I gotta say, I once was a vile, hateful, stinking, letching gray and I’m not as hateful anymore. I am so grateful I don’t want to hurt others as much as I used to. That is like heaven for me. The story goes, a drunk was asked if he believed in heaven. “I sure do”. “Why?” Pointing to his midsection he says, “Cause I got hell right here.”
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Always preaching never answering the question. Dude you are on the wrong blog.
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Graham
November 1, 2016 • 2:30 pm
Paul
This really is not that hard. Christian doctrine holds that god incarnated into human flesh whilst simultaneously existing outside of his creation.
I say;
All creature worshipers who worship creatures like Jesus Christ, Emperor Haile Selaissie, Monkeys, pigs, snakes, elephants, etc. holds that god incarnated into human flesh, snake flesh, monkey flesh, pig or swine flesh, elephant flesh etc. whilst simultaneously existing outside of his creation.
All those are idolatry and creature worshipers and will be burned in the hell fire if they do not repent.
Thanks.
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Intellect
Muslims kiss and caress a stone, and walk around a tent muttering repetitive prayers like the pagans – nowhere in the OT or NT does it say to do this. In fact, nowhere in the quran does it say to do this. Muslims practice this idolatry because a human being told them to do so.
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“Muslims kiss and caress a stone, and walk around a tent muttering repetitive prayers like the pagans – nowhere in the OT or NT does it say to do this. In fact, nowhere in the quran does it say to do this. Muslims practice this idolatry because a human being told them to do so.”
out of curiosity what is your problem with kissing a stone which has no image on it?
quote
Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
2Kings 18:4
He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan.
IF THEY DID NOT BURN INCENSE TO IT AND CALLED IT NEHUSHTAN, then would moses object to looking at it or even kissing it?
wouldn’t you smother and kiss a half naked jew if he appeared to you with holes in his hands and feet?
please don’t talk about idolatry.
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edward
I’m starting to feel sorry for you.
Those two biblical quotes condemn kissing the black stone and circling the kaaba reciting mindless, repetitive prayers like the pagans.
The serpent was not put there to be an object of veneration. The israelites had turned it into an object of worship – just like muslims have turned kissing the black stone into a worship ritual.
“wouldn’t you smother and kiss a half naked jew if he appeared to you with holes in his hands and feet?”
Actually, yes I would. If someone you knew was supposed to be dead from the very wounds that his body is displaying and he had previously told you he would rise after being crucified as an atonement for sin, then yes I most certainly would worship him.
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“Those two biblical quotes condemn kissing the black stone and circling the kaaba reciting mindless, repetitive prayers like the pagans.”
moses put up a bronze idol which people started going to for a cure. you dumb ass.
how does circling the kaaba , UNDERSTANDING the prayers by REPEATING them and kissing a stone imply IDOLATRY?
define
idolatry
ʌɪˈdɒlətri/Submit
noun
the worship of idols.
synonyms: idol worship, idolatrism, fetishism, iconolatry, icon worship; More
extreme admiration, love, or reverence for something or someone.
kissing out of RESPECT is different than going before a fukin BRONZE idol and awaiting a cure
”
The serpent was not put there to be an object of veneration. The israelites had turned it into an object of worship – just like muslims have turned kissing the black stone into a worship ritual.”
it was giving CURES. so how wasn’t it an object of VENERATION.
they only turned it because of what abilities it had
no muslim gives SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES to a stone
“wouldn’t you smother and kiss a half naked jew if he appeared to you with holes in his hands and feet?”
“Actually, yes I would. ”
before your eyes is flesh
human being
blood
skin
“suffering servant”
holes
wounds
this is the OBJECT of your worship. the guy suffered , you turn it into “universal suffering”
this implies that you have extreme veneration, movement of the heart, worship, engendering feelings towards for this IDOL you worship
”
If someone you knew was supposed to be dead from the very wounds that his body is displaying and he had previously told you he would rise after being crucified as an atonement for sin, then yes I most certainly would worship him.”
you would take it as your god and creator of the universe!
you must be dumb not to realise this.
you would see it as your salvation just like catholics see mary as their salvation
how come you can do this for a human BODY and not allow one to kiss a STONE which has absolutely no power out of it?
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edward
“no muslim gives SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES to a stone”
Perhaps. The idolatry is in the reason for the veneration – your own sources reveal that the kissing the black stone was a pagan ritual. Muslims only kiss it because mihammed kissed it – you are idolizing a human being by venerating a stone solely because it was kissed by a man whose butt-hole you guys would sell your own daughters to sniff. Allah never tells muslims to kiss and caress a pagan object of worship.
That’s idolatry.
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“The idolatry is in the reason for the veneration – your own sources reveal that the kissing the black stone was a pagan ritual. Muslims only kiss it because mihammed kissed it – you are idolizing a human being by venerating a stone solely because it was kissed by a man whose butt-hole you guys would sell your own daughters to sniff.”
you hide under jesus’ butt hole and sniff holy ghost mon-sun thinking to yourself that you are saved from any sin you do. you are under jesus’ skirt , like coward , not facing up to the fact that you are polytheist and deserving of hell fire for your continued sins against your god.
at least they are unlike christians who turned the instrument /tool in to “power” and “love”
at least they didn’t turn gods salvation into a jew
idolising by following? they could have turned muhammad into angel or god incarnate or they could of turned his suffering into universal sacrificie , but they didn’t
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edward
“you hide under jesus’ butt hole and sniff holy ghost mon-sun thinking to yourself that you are saved from any sin you do.”
Show me one christian minister who says that we must sniff jesus’ butt-hole?
Intellect has already stated that he would give up his 9 year old daughter to be raped by your stone worshiping prophet – clearly he would sniff the prophet’s butthole if the prophet demanded it.
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edward
Also, show me where allah tells muslims to kiss a black stone.
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Graham
You said;
So, no, god did not die and your insistence that this is what christian believe is making you look silly.
I say;
Thanks be to God. Finally you have admitted God did not die for your sins Graham. This is a step in the right direction. Next time you will consider worshiping the only one God of Abraham who is not 3 anything. It is shift to Islam.
I can be pig because I am a creature and Paul Williams can be silly because he is also a creature. With all our silliness we do not worship any creature. Never, except the God of Jesus alone who Jesus said He(Jesus’s God) is the only true God. Said Jesus Christ.
But you worship a creature i.e. man who is a creature like the pig you called me. By worshiping a creature like me and a pig, then you worship someone like me a human being or you worship a pig.
Thanks.
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Intellect
No god did not cease to exist – all christians believe that. I’m not sure why you getting engorged from that.
God’s fleshly incarnate word died and was resurrected.
You can be a pig as much as you want – no skin off my back. You can even be a woman and call yourself Caitlyn for all I care.
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You don’t know many Christians do you Graham?
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”
No god did not cease to exist – all christians believe that. I’m not sure why you getting engorged from that.”
but he did die
therefore he is not immortal
so you worship a mortal being who dies
greyhound, are human beings immortal? they will not cease to exist after their death
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edward
“but he did die
therefore he is not immortal”
So when msulism are supposedly resurrected in the end times they will not be immortal? They’ll be what?
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“So when msulism are supposedly resurrected in the end times they will not be immortal? They’ll be what?”
my goodness. you are dumb!
that they were resurrected implies they were not immortal
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edward
“that they were resurrected implies they were not immortal”
Talk about dumb.
So muslims are going to die a second time once they are resurrected? Islamic heaven is only temporary?
LOL
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“Talk about dumb.
So muslims are going to die a second time once they are resurrected? Islamic heaven is only temporary?”
is there any point to respond. i’m out.
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edward
See ya!
Just as I suspected, you have been caught out by your own inability to reason logically.
Jesus wins again!
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I would like an answer – do muslims who resurrected become immortal?
edward claims that you cannot be immortal once you die, which would put an end to any hope of eternal paradise for muslims.
Is he an apostate for saying that there is no eternal life for resurrected muslims?
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pig said :
“edward claims that you cannot be immortal once you die, which would put an end to any hope of eternal paradise for muslims.”
i said :
that they were resurrected implies they were not immortal .
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“jesus wins again!”
thor hammered jesus
one man god took the life of another
thor is your god
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edward
“pig said :
“edward claims that you cannot be immortal once you die, which would put an end to any hope of eternal paradise for muslims.”
i said :
that they were resurrected implies they were not immortal .”
I see that paul williams allows insults when it is directed at christians.
Regardless, so once resurrected muslims are not immortal? They remain mortal and can die again? LOL, no wonder you have to resort to insults.
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edward
“thor hammered jesus
one man god took the life of another
thor is your god”
Thor is not the christian god.
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immortal
ɪˈmɔːt(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
living forever; never dying or decaying.
God is defined as creator and ruler of the universe
one who lives forever
invisible
All seeing and All knowing
All hearing
All seeing – does not stop
All hearing – does not stop
All knowing – does not stop
Immortal
jesus = 2 natures , 1 person
is fully god and fully man immortal ?
if fully man dies , then it lacks what fully god has. if fully god exist in his current state, then what does it mean
2 natures, 1 person dies?
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“Regardless, so once resurrected muslims are not immortal? ”
immortal would imply a living which is not caused by anything and always existed.
thor nailed your god by hammering him.
thor is your god because the power to hammer him was taken from your “father in heaven”
kind of like that woman who stole a miracle from jesus without jesus realising.
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edward
“immortal would imply a living which is not caused by anything and always existed.”
The islam has a big problem – muslims do not become eternal after they are resurrected.
Islam is false.
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“The islam has a big problem – muslims do not become eternal after they are resurrected.”
is eli yah alive?
if yes, then was he alive when your 2 natures, 1 PERSON was dying and died.
2. was his life caused or uncaused
3. was he dependant on Gods allowance for Him to live
4. 2 natures, 1 person died
5. 2 natures or fully god and fully man was nailed
6. 2 natures, 1 person cried out “why have you forsaken me”
7. when 2 natures, 1 person said “not my will but your will … ” then this implies the divine nature had to speak the same time as the human nature
otherwise you just have 1 nature speaking while the other remains mute LOL
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edward
you are avoiding islam’s big problem. Muslims who are resurrected at end times cannot be immortal – that makes islamic worship belief pointless.
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“Muslims who are resurrected at end times cannot be immortal – that makes islamic worship belief pointless.”
1. is god immortal ? yes or no
2. do humans die? yes or no
3. when humans are brought back to life does that indicate they are immortal ? yes or no
4. angels die? yes or no ?
5. angels are immortal?
6. if one is brought into existence did it exist before it existed and as a person with other persons in trinity?
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Graham: “For some reason you and the muslims on this blog don’t understand the simple concept of the plural god.”
You know one prefix indicating plurality is poly, and another word for god is theos. Maybe Muslims just can’t make sense out of the simple concept of polytheism.
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VS
You’re argument is that because words share a common root or history, then that makes them the same thing?
According to you, your salary is actually salt since the word “salary” derives from the latin word for salt.
Your display of poor reasoning illustrates precisely why muslims don’t understand the simple concept of the plural monotheistic god.
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You described your concept of a single plural God as monotheistic.
Wouldn’t ‘monopolytheistic’ be a more accurate term?
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No, I don’t think so.
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Ok. You stated earlier that for some reason Muslims are incapable of understanding the concept of the single plural God.
Do you know the reason Jews do not seem to understand either?
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I don’t agree that jews don’t understand – pluralism of god is all over the OT, and several scholars now admit that plurality of god is a jewish concept derived from the plain meaning of the bible.
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Graham
November 1, 2016 • 3:01 pm
Intellect
Muslims kiss and caress a stone, and walk around a tent muttering repetitive prayers like the pagans – nowhere in the OT or NT does it say to do this. In fact, nowhere in the quran does it say to do this. Muslims practice this idolatry because a human being told them to do so
I say;
Give me one Muslim who says “Kaaba is God” or “I worship Kaaba”
Give me one Jew who says “western wall is God” or “I worship western wall”
Christians like you say Jesus is God and you worship Jesus.
If you do not know this difference you are creature worship has destroyed your brain.
Jews and Muslims Go to the sacred place of worship like Kaaba and western wall to pray to the one God of Abraham without mentioning Kaaba or western wall but to kiss the place of worship like how they kiss their wives and children because they love this place of worship which was the original place of worship build to serve only one God of Abraham.
Christians on the other hand will worship the crosses, statues, virgin Mary etc. as manifestation and emanation of God because they believed part of God is here on earth and part of God is in heaven. That is incarnation.
Jews and Muslims do not believe in incarnation, so they do not believe Kaaba or western wall is God at all
Thanks.
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The kaaba is not mentioned anywhere in the Old or New testaments. There is no evidence that it has any relationship to judeo-christian worship, and no evidence exists that it was built by jews.
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Graham
You said;
The kaaba is not mentioned anywhere in the Old or New testaments. There is no evidence that it has any relationship to judeo-christian worship, and no evidence exists that it was built by jews.
I say;
With regards to Jews, I am talking about the western wall in Jerusalem where Jews bow down to pray, kiss, put their prayers written on papers into its holes etc. and it does not mean they worship it just like Muslims do not worship Kaaba.
Kaaba is in Mecca, Saudi Arabia and not Jerusalem, but Muslims believed Abraham built the Kaaba as a place to worship the only true God of Abraham. we just visit there to pray but we do not worship Kaaba.
Thanks.
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intellect
I agree – the kaaba has nothing to do with abraham and judeo-christian traditions. It is a warmed-over pagan ritual.
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Graham
You said;
Intellect
No god did not cease to exist – all christians believe that. I’m not sure why you getting engorged from that.
God’s fleshly incarnate word died and was resurrected.
You can be a pig as much as you want – no skin off my back. You can even be a woman and call yourself Caitlyn for all I care.
I say;
We are talking about God not dying according to the Bible and you accept that and God did not die for your sins and not a word or phrase change like “cease to exist”.
We are talking about God does not die
God does not die
God does not die
God does not die
which the Bible clearly said.
not
cease to exist
Back to topic. God will not die said the Bible and you agreed. So God did not die for your sins. Christians when cornered, will change words, phrase, sentence, twists scripture to put their creature i.e. idol worship in it. This is not blog for that.
It can be done on David Wood or Sam Shamoun site.
Thanks.
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intellect
“We are talking about God does not die
God does not die
God does not die
God does not die
which the Bible clearly said.
not
cease to exist”
Exactly. God did not die – the incarnate flesh of the word of god died. God does not cease to exist.
Only muslims believe that christians believe that. No christian believes that god ceased to exist.
Why can’t you guys get that simple doctrine? Geez, you guys are dumb.
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“Only muslims believe that christians believe that. No christian believes that god ceased to exist.”
since you are a dumb greyhound gentile pig
immortal
ɪˈmɔːt(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
living forever; never dying or decaying.
contrast to death
what you seem to be implying is that as long as god does not “cease to exist”
he can get KILLED a thousand times
murdered a thousand times
dethroned by satan a thousand times
as long as he doesn’t cease to exist he can make elijah IMMORTAL (funny elijah was ALIVE while your god was dying lol) and beam up elijahs life next to gods own.
death implies to lose control of your life
fully god and fully flesh united , 1 person fully experienced LOSS of life and CONTROL
so yes, in a sense it CEASED in performing what a God always has CONTROL over.
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Graham
You said;
Exactly. God did not die – the incarnate flesh of the word of god died. God does not cease to exist.
Only muslims believe that christians believe that. No christian believes that god ceased to exist.
Why can’t you guys get that simple doctrine? Geez, you guys are dumb.
I say;
“Exactly. God did not die”-Graham
“die-the incarnate flesh of the word died” -Graham
Graham. I will take your first statement as you agreed. God did not die for your sins.
The second statement is rubbish if you believe the first one.
It is like an idol worshiper saying
“when Haile Selassie, elephant, monkey, snake etc. died it is the incarnate flesh that died, but the monkey, elephant, man etc. did not die.
Graham, you want us to believe this nonsense? You brain is washed and damaged if you think we will accept this nonsense.
Thanks.
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“Show me one christian minister who says that we must sniff jesus’ butt-hole?”
his name is minister jesus
quote :
Likewise, at the so-called Last Supper, Jesus attempted to overwrite the Pesach with his own narrative. A day that was dedicated to remembering God’s removal of Israel from Exodus was now to be a day to commemorate Jesus’ death. Jesus is taking something that refers one to God, a day set aside eternally just for this purpose, and repurposing it to make it about himself. This is far from your claim that he always referred people to Hashem. In fact, he is taking a memorial that does refer people to Hashem and now making it to refer to himself. He exalts himself over God, the antithesis of your assertion.
The Church continues to exalt Jesus over God in the same manner, of course. Shavuot has become for the Church, Pentecost. A day dedicated to celebrating God granting Israel a most precious gift is to become a day about receiving the ability to speak a foreign language without having to learn. Shabbat is not about honoring the Creator but the supposed resurrection. And one may read the works of various counter-counter-missionaries to see how they relate the festivals to Jesus. The things meant to focus the nation of priests on their God are now rewritten by the Church to focus humanity on Jesus. How reminiscent of the one who “shall attempt to change the sacred seasons and the law” (Dan. 7.24).
When a man wishes to follow Jesus, but needs to bury his father, Jesus exalts himself, yet again. By telling the man to “let the dead bury the dead” he is telling the man to dishonor his father, contrary to the Law of Hashem. He also ignores that it is a mitzvah to bury the dead. Jesus again exalts himself over Hashem.
And, in fact, the way he interposes himself between Man and God is to draw one’s attention away from Hashem and to himself. When he asserts that no one comes to the Father except through himself, he has contravened the Torah and exalted himself with base arrogance. He has attempted to seize the honor one owes God and direct it to himself. He has attempted to capture the devotion one owes his Creator and keep it for himself.
In short, he has not referred one to Hashem. He has attempted to take attention from Hashem and exalt himself. He has attempted to enthrone himself in the hearts of humanity rather than the One to Whom is due all devotion, gratitude, and obedience. He pretended his own words were superior to those of Hashem, called himself “Lord of the Sabbath” and retooled Pesach to be about himself. Your thesis falls.
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When humans die, the soul/spirit separates from the body and goes to either heaven or hell.
Since God (as God, before the incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Trinity) – is Spirit, Sovereign, invisible, non-physical, death does not apply to God. That is what the passage means – God cannot be destroyed or cease to exist. God as God by nature cannot die because death means having a created existance (a body). 1 Timothy 6:16 is about God as God as not being able to be destroyed or ceasing to exist, since bodily death does not apply to God as God.
But when the 2nd person of the Trinity – the Word (John 1:1, 1:14), the eternal Son (John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8) took on a body and a human nature, then as Jesus the Messiah the human, He was able to die. But death does not affect the divine nature, since it is indestructible, eternal, all powerful. The Son has two natures, the human body died and was buried, but the human soul / spirit lives on, as even you guys as Muslims must believe. (The souls of the dead in Islam, as far as I understand await in the grave until the day of resurrection/ judgment.)
So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die, and paid for our sins, because of His powerful atoning death and His powerful resurrection from the dead.
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“So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die..”
Spot the contradiction!
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There is no contradiction.
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obviously there is. Come on Ken – think!
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“When humans die, the soul/spirit separates from the body and goes to either heaven or hell.”
2 natures, 1 person went to hell?
was god the divine being + god the human SOUL (forget the flesh) went to hell?
this means god is not IMMORTAL
“Since God (as God, before the incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Trinity) – is Spirit, Sovereign, invisible, non-physical, death does not apply to God. ”
wrong. your god is . 2 natures, 1 person. therefore , the one person DIED. he dies in his divinity and his humanity because he is 1 person .
“That is what the passage means – God cannot be destroyed or cease to exist.”
sorry, you are wrong.
2 natures, 1 person
united.
one
not separated. not divided .
fused
your god. through his divine powers and human flesh + human soul
SIMULTANEOUSLY
was roasting in hell and butchered by human beings
minus the flesh from god, then what is left
it is the invisible part which was experiencing all the human nature and human suffering
the invisible part with divine powers became
1 person
therefore , your god was SUFFERING in his divinity and humanity
same same
” God as God by nature cannot die because death means having a created existance (a body). 1 Timothy 6:16 is about God as God as not being able to be destroyed or ceasing to exist, since bodily death does not apply to God as God.”
what a joke
2 natures, 1 PERSON
1 PERSON
1 PERSON
1 PERSON
not two SEPARATE PERSONS
1 PERSON
you are doing the following
you are saying
the 2 natures , 1 person
is really
1 nature, 1 person
and the 1 person with divine nature plays tiddly winks while PERSONLESS FLESH IS BEING NAILED
wrong!
2 natures, 1 person dying and died.
”
But when the 2nd person of the Trinity – the Word (John 1:1, 1:14), the eternal Son (John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8) took on a body and a human nature, then as Jesus the Messiah the human, He was able to die.”
back to
2 natures , 1 person
now you are UNITING the 2 natures again and saying the 1 person i.e the divine + human “was able to DIE”
now it is not PERSONLESS nature anymore
keep on switching
” But death does not affect the divine nature, since it is indestructible, eternal, all powerful.”
now you DIVORCED the 2 natures from each other and have 1 nature as PERSONLESS
very thanks
” The Son has two natures, the human body died and was buried, but the human soul / spirit lives on, as even you guys as Muslims must believe. (The souls of the dead in Islam, as far as I understand await in the grave until the day of resurrection/ judgment.)”
so is god the divine and invisible being HUMAN SOUl/spirit ?
”
So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die, and paid for our sins, because of His powerful atoning death and His powerful resurrection from the dead.”
LOL
what a laugh.
now he is saying 1 person DIED . lol
yes, your god with divine and human nature died .
very thanks
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He did not go to hell.
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i don’t care. a lot of christians who are not from your pagan version believe he was butchered in hell . one chinese evangelist said he met hitler in hell and forgave him.
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that’s heresy and goofy, so easily dismissed.
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yes he did – according to your religion
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No, He did not. He may have gone to Hades ( I Peter 3:19) and led captivity captive (Ephesians 4:8-9), taking the OT saints to heaven with Him, as Abraham was there in the peaceful/ restful part of Hades in Luke 16:19-31. In verse 22-23 and 26 shows there is a chasm between the 2 places.
Dr. Wayne Grudem has an excellent article on the phrase in some of the creeds, “He descended into Hell”:
Click to access he-did-not-descend-into-hell_JETS.pdf
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Hades is different than Hell.
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” But death does not affect the divine nature ” !
Didn’t he come to earth to die for your sins?
What is the reason that he took a human body ?
What is the ” great sacrifice” ? then?
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Read Hebrews 2:14-18 and meditate on it. Also John 10:18
Yes, He took on a human body and nature and lived for 33 years a perfect sinless life, and by dying in our place as a human, paid the price for us who deserved punishment.
Read Athanasius’ great work, “On the Incarnation of the Word”
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/athanasius/incarnation.ii.html
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I’ve read it. God hates human sacrifices. Meditate on that.
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Yes, God has commanded against human sacrifices and hates them, since we are human and it is unjust for one human to kill another human as a human sacrifice and God hates the paganism in those religions because they are false religions and false gods.
But He can chose to become human and pay the price for us if He wants to.
John 10:18
Then why did He command Abraham to sacrifice his son? (Surah 37:102-107)
We also believe it was a test, a trial – Genesis 22:1
But why?
Why not choose a different trial, test, right?
Seems weird to test someone on something that is inherently wrong and horrible and disgusting, right?
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If you read Athanasius’ work, why do you continue to misrepresent what Christians believe?
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But God sent his ( Son) according to the gospel . Also, God can easily create a sinless human being.
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abullah
Not if god chooses to abide by the principle of free will.
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No, there is no contradiction; and I have thought about this a lot and still do think about it. If you read my whole post, my point is clear.
1 Timothy 6:16 cannot be talking about Jesus’ divine nature, since the divine nature cannot be destroyed. God as God cannot die means He cannot be destroyed or cease to exist, since technically death requires a created being/ a body/ something physical – death means the separation of the spirit / soul from the body and then the body rots in the grave.
Since Christians believe God the eternal Son took on an additional nature, and human nature and body, (John 1:1, 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8; Hebrews 2:14-18), then Jesus can and did die.
There is no contradiction.
As a Muslim, do you believe that when humans die, their souls / spirits continue to exist in the grave? yes
So, death for a human does not mean “ceasing to exist” but separation of soul from spirit.
The soul / spirit of Jesus was separated from His body, then on the 3rd day He re-entered that same body and rose from the dead, proving He was God in the flesh, the eternal Son of God; the Word of God; the Kalimat’Allah.
کلمه الله
Glory !
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” But death does not affect the divine nature ” !
now you are saying that the 2 natures are united and there is 1 person
but the one person is not effected by death
then the question is
who is the 1 person who is not effected by death?
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“Yes, He took on a human body and nature and lived for 33 years a perfect sinless life, and by dying in our place as a human, paid the price for us who deserved punishment.”
a lot of people go to their deaths willingly and don’t need jesus to pay any price.
quote :
And ironically, Rabbi, that is exactly what Christians REALLY believe when they are not trying to convert people, but living their life in a cycle of sin and repentance. How many times have we seen the bumper sticker that reads, “Christians are not Perfect, just Forgiven”?
This is the catch-22 they face. If God can forgive and welcome an imperfect person, then what is the need for Jesus? On the other hand, if they are still sinning even after accepting Jesus (and ALL of them are, by their own admission), then on what basis are they fit for God’s presence, if sinless perfection is the qualifying criteria? Think about this: if it is about “the blood of Jesus” and “Jesus dying for our sins”, then there is no need for repentance or even right-doing, since God does not consider your sin, but Jesus’ supposed perfection in your place.
That is why Hebrews chapters 8-10 exposes the fatal flaw of Christian doctrine and the NT. No reason to even bother with the rest of the arguments. Christianity is self-defeating on its most basic premise.
end quote
very thanks
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“But He can chose to become human and pay the price for us if He wants to.”
animal blood was doing the majic. jesus was absolutely redundant. do you not know that animal blood had atoning powers according to the ot?
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“But He can chose to become human and pay the price for us if He wants to.”
you mean he was inspired by pagans giving up innocent children to the gods?
he had to choose a human way of appeasing himself
pagans appeased their gods through cutting children
the blood of virgin and innocent was a vital ingredient
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“1 Timothy 6:16 cannot be talking about Jesus’ divine nature, since the divine nature cannot be destroyed. ”
1 person with divine nature
“God as God cannot die means He cannot be destroyed or cease to exist,”
1 person with divine nature
”
since technically death requires a created being/ a body/ something physical – death means the separation of the spirit / soul from the body and then the body rots in the grave.”
1 person + divine nature + 1 body + human soul + human spirit
did 100 % person who is FULLY god become FULLY human
now the SAME person with divine powers/nature = fully human
since this person did not have FULLY human nature, then when jesus said “my soul is deeply troubled…”
then the PERSON with divine nature said and the fully human nature said
@ the same TIME
“my soul is deeply troubled”
at the SAME time 2 natures , 1 person is dying
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”
So, death for a human does not mean “ceasing to exist” but separation of soul from spirit.
The soul / spirit of Jesus was separated from His body, then on the 3rd day He re-entered that same body and rose from the dead, proving He was God in the flesh, the eternal Son of God; the Word of God; the”
kalimatushaytaan .
body contains divine person who is also a human person i.e god thinks like human and like himself ?
so human person who is @ the same time divine person was separated from body
1 person who knows he is divine and human (he thinks like divine and human) separates from body
what it seem you are doing is you are playing games
“his body”
is clearly not “his person”
you said
the divine person EXISTS as a human person
both @ the same time
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ken, i don’t know why it is difficult for christians to admit that
your god
in his divine person exists as a human simultaneously
when 2 natures, 1 person says , ” i go back to your god and my god”
then 1 person who is both god and man says ” i go back to your god and my god”
1 person with fully god and fully human
suffers
when the 1 PERSON is suffering, the you understand that there is penetration of both natures which fully experience the other
so it is also possible that the human nature fully experience the divine
you are having them EXIST @ THE same time
it is only logical for you to admit that god CEASED to be IMMORTAL
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Paul Williams
November 1, 2016 • 8:56 pm
“So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die..”
Spot the contradiction!
—————–
My brother, tell them again and again and loud that NATURE, NATURE, NATURE, NATURE, NATURE is not a person and nature does not die. It is a person that dies. Very intelligent Christians like Ken Temple will sell their conscience and intellect to argue that nature died.
Ken Temple
So, Ken it is a nature that died for your sins not God. Why do you not tell the truth and say God died for people sins? So God is a nature and it is his nature that died for your sins not He Himself. Ken excuse me you told a lie here to say God died for people sins instead of telling the truth that it is only His nature.
What is nature
Nature
Nature, in the broadest sense, is the natural, physical, or material world or universe. “Nature” can refer to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. The study of nature is a large part of science. Although humans are part of nature, human activity is often understood as a separate category from other natural phenomena.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=what+is+nature&form=EDGNTC&qs=PF&cvid=ca6f1cac1e5547fc9e4c6f69dd3220aa&pq=what+is+nature
na·ture
ˈnāCHər/Submit
noun
1.
the phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the earth, as opposed to humans or human creations.
“the breathtaking beauty of nature”
synonyms: the natural world, Mother Nature, Mother Earth, the environment; More
2.
the basic or inherent features of something, especially when seen as characteristic of it.
“helping them to realize the nature of their problems”
synonyms: essence, inherent/basic/essential qualities, inherent/basic/essential features, character, complexion More
Source: https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1AVNE_enCA715CA715&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=what%20is%20nature
Ken Temple, convert to Islam today and do not sell your intellect to Christianity that always not tell the truth in so many instances from God being a 3 persons being to God dying.
Nature is a phenomena, characteristics, natural, physical etc. of the world and it is not PERSON, MAN OR GOD to die for your sins.
You keep not telling the truth by saying “nature” died for your sins which is an impossibility running away from the God died for your sins which you know is a big lie by Christians because the Bible refute them clearly that God does not die.
It is a being/person with intellect, consciousness that has weight and occupy space that dies and human beings die and either Go to heaven or hell(may God forbid).
Nature is not a person and does not have consciousness or intellect like a person and nature do not die and judged. God will judge all persons but God will not judge “nature” because natures do not have soul and body like humans i.e. humans who die.
It is a lie to say nature died. It is a lie to say nature died for your sins. You will initially say God died for your sins. If you are corrected from that impossibility, you then say it is the human part, when corrected from that you then take the last resort “nature” died for your sins.
For your information both God does not die and “nature” is not a being to die for anyone’s sins. Come to Islam Ken. The “experience” you are having can be acquired by anyone who is not a Christian. Satan can give you a wonderful feeling and you will be running away from the truth in favour of the “experience” that idol worshipers, Sufis, voodoo priest, Buddhists, Hindus, followers or Joel Olsteen, Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar etc.
are all experiencing the “experience” and it could be satanic if you do not follow the truth that “nature”do not die and the God of Abraham is one and only true God said Jesus.
Thanks.
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“So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. ”
ken, what is a person without nature?
when jesus “the word” came down did his invisible person come down without a nature ?
can divine nature exist without persons ?
i guess you believe divine nature is “alive” because you pagans pray to “one divine nature” which you call god
+ 3 additional persons
so “one divine nature ” + 3 persons
your “one god” is simply a divine nature . father (person) ghost (person ) son (person)
can each come down and DIE
natureless person = father
natureless person = son
natureless person = ghost
so if divine nature does not die
then jesus the one person
put his person which was natureless in a human body?
since divine nature did not die
then
person died?
gods person died while his divine nature stayed alive ?
what the ….
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Ken Temple
Human Nature
Ken, nature is not human or God but characteristics or feature and it is just like attributes. Attributes, feature, nature etc. are not God Himself and do not have consciousness, some are not substance and do not have weight and occupy space.
When I attend natures call or when a person attends natures call will the nature die and judged by God? Will a nature die? and judged by God? Or is it a person who is judged by God?
One of God’s nature is to create. Do mean “create” died for your sins another nature of God is “to show mercy”. “Show mercy” as God’s nature died for your sins? I am asking all these because you claim “God’s nature” died for your sins.
When Jesus visits toilet to attend natures call. Does that s*** died for your sins?
Human Nature
Human nature refers to the distinguishing characteristics—including ways of thinking, feeling, and acting—which humans tend to have naturally. The questions of whether there truly are fixed characteristics, what these natural characteristics are, and what causes them are among the oldest and most important questions in philosophy and science. The concept of human nature is traditionally contrasted not only with unusual human characteristics, but also with characteristics which are derived from specific cultures, and upbringings. The “nature versus nurture” debate is a well-known modern discussion about human nature in the natural sciences.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=human+nature&form=EDGNTC&qs=PF&cvid=0947dc90f86949f98c906c70bd6d4449&pq=human+nature
Thanks.
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Paul, some thoughts on human sacrifice. Clearly, God hates it. No doubt what Christ went through was despicable to anyone with a sense of justice. What had He done, precisely, that warranted such treatment? He told the truth. He was truth. I think if the religious leaders of that place and time were not personally threatened by this unknown, impoverished, not politically connected person, He would not have become their target. What had He done? He was Himself.
“There are several reasons why the sacrifice of Christ on the cross does not violate the prohibition against human sacrifice. First, Jesus wasn’t merely human. If He were, then His sacrifice would have also been a temporary one because one human life couldn’t possibly cover the sins of the multitudes who ever existed. Neither could one finite human life atone for sin against an infinite God. The only viable sacrifice must be an infinite one, which means only God Himself could atone for the sins of mankind. Only God Himself, an infinite Being, could pay the penalty owed to Himself. This is why God had to become a Man and dwell among men (John 1:14). No other sacrifice would suffice.
Second, God didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Rather, Jesus, as God incarnate, sacrificed Himself. No one forced Him. He laid down His life willingly, as He made clear speaking about His life: “No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again” (John 10:18). God the Son sacrificed Himself to God the Father and thereby fulfilled all the requirements of the Law. Unlike the temporary sacrifices, Jesus’ once-for-all-time sacrifice was followed by His resurrection. He laid down His life and took it up again, thereby providing eternal life for all who would ever believe in Him and accept His sacrifice for their sins. He did this out of love for the Father and for all those the Father has given Him (John 6:37–40).” gotQuestions?org
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“Second, God didn’t sacrifice Jesus. Rather, Jesus, as God incarnate, sacrificed Himself. No one forced Him.”
is this really the case ? if god in christianity did not kill himself and pilate saved him, then god would have committed a sin, because he intentionally sent himself to calm his own wrath. how can a god reneg on his own sacrificial ritual ? so god is in a way FORCED to do his own justice otherwise he would live a sad life and grieve and repent for sending everyone to hell. god BOXED himself into two CHOICES.
god was limited to two choices
either he kill everyone (he will do that anyway because people are destined to hell) or he violently do a RITUAL killing of :
jesus’ blood is created
his body is created
his bones are created
the human soul + spirit = created
christians say that god incarnated and his divine nature remained “alive”
so what was “jesus” then? a robot with the label ” god” ?
mark 10.45 clearly use pagan greek god appeasing language to calm and cool off a diety
if jesus’ is 1 PERSON, 2 natures, then the SAME person LIKE the pagans is willingly ALLOWING his other nature to receive bloody and violent torture.
everytime a hebrew cut off the neck of a sheep, he went home GUILTLESS
because he did a guilt offering and that calmed him down and he thought “my sins and guilt has been atoned”
so it is clear that “jesus”, 1 PERSON, 2 nature is receiving COOLING down and calm after the ritual slaughter of his other nature . in other words god is COOLING down .
“it PLEASED god to…”
654 [e]
ḥā·p̄êṣ
חָפֵ֤ץ
Yet it pleased
Verb
so logically 1 PERSOn, 2 natures, was happy to CRUSH himself and to receive calming down from the act.
Diogenes Laertius :
They tell us that the wise man will for reasonable cause make his own exit from life, on his country’s behalf or for the SAKE OF his FRIENDS, or if he suffer intolerable pain, mutilation, or incurable disease
“since self sacrifice is a form of violence ( a violence against the self ), then it is clear that jesus is portrayed as glorifying SELF-VIOLENCE.”
2 natures, 1 person and SAME person receiving satisfaction
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Ken Temple
You said;
There is no contradiction.
As a Muslim, do you believe that when humans die, their souls / spirits continue to exist in the grave? yes
So, death for a human does not mean “ceasing to exist” but separation of soul from spirit.
The soul / spirit of Jesus was separated from His body, then on the 3rd day He re-entered that same body and rose from the dead, proving He was God in the flesh, the eternal Son of God; the Word of God; the Kalimat’Allah.
I say;
Tell Dr. James White that he can pull fast one on us by changing words, phrase, sentence, scriptures and everything possible like Christians had done to deny the truth.
What is the Truth that you are hiding and denying?
The Bible said God is immortal-He does not die. So God did not die for your sins. You change the word immortal-does not die to “cease to exist”. The Bible did not use “cease to exist” but the Bible used immortal-does not die.
So God did not die for your sins because the Bible said God would not die at all. You are now comparing God to man in grave but you accuse me of comparing God to man when I said every no person can be a person without being a being i.e. human being, divine being, angelic being, demonic being, satanic being etc.
Nature is not a person or a being and so nature do not die. Ken, no matter how you define death God does not die but human beings die.
————————
“But He can chose to become human and pay the price for us if He wants to.”
I say;
He can chose to become monkey, elephant, snake, man(Haile Selaissie, Sai Baba etc.) to pay the price for us if He wants to as He did in the past to reveal Himself as a Hindu God, voodoo God, Buddhist God etc.
How do you know that God did not at a certain point in time revealed Himself as a Hindu God?-Dr. Shabbir Ally.
Thanks.
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Paul, pretty sound thinking here. C. S. Lewis was pretty famous for that. Saying more with fewer words than many.
“Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean, that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world Who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.”
Hope that’s not preaching. I think the words, “when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.” ring true. I cannot find anyone at any time who comes close to making statements like Christ did. He is altogether unique, distinct and profoundly different and mind-blowing, from all that I know. People with an intact personality simply don’t go around saying things like, “I am the way the life and the truth. No man comes to the Father except by me.” Do you know of any exceptions?
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Jesus’ human nature died, not His God nature. Petty argument refuted in 8 words.
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No so. The post claims that only God can be a sufficient sacrifice for sins. It says God died.
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So. The post does not represent Christianity, yet the title of the blog is clearly that Christianity is debunked. So, this is of course a challenge to Christianity, not the flawed opinion of some random Christian, LOL. You easily contradict yourself. If one asked myself regarding this issue, I would answer Jesus sacrificed Himself because He is SINLESS, He had no sins and so He can take on our sins, unlike man, because all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Might as well delete your post considering it is misleading, LOL
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When humans die, the soul/spirit separates from the body and goes to either heaven or hell.
Since God (as God, before the incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Trinity) – is Spirit, Sovereign, invisible, non-physical, death does not apply to God. That is what the passage in 1 Tim. 6:16 means – God cannot be destroyed or cease to exist. God as God by nature cannot die because death means having a created existance (a body). 1 Timothy 6:16 is about God as God as not being able to be destroyed or ceasing to exist, since bodily death does not apply to God as God.
But when the 2nd person of the Trinity – the Word (John 1:1, 1:14), the eternal Son (John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8) took on a body and a human nature, then as Jesus the Messiah the human, He was able to die. But death does not affect the divine nature, since it is indestructible, eternal, all powerful. The Son has two natures, the human body died and was buried, but the human soul / spirit lives on, as even you guys as Muslims must believe. (The souls of the dead in Islam, as far as I understand await in the grave until the day of resurrection/ judgment.)
So, your whole argument fails, since Jesus’ divine nature did not die. natures don’t die, persons do. But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die (but death does not affect His Divine Nature, per 1 Tim. 6:16), and paid for our sins, because of His powerful atoning death and His powerful resurrection from the dead.
Because of His divine nature being invisible and all powerful, He was able to raise Himself up from the dead (working in harmony with the Father and the Holy Spirit).
John 10:18
“No one takes My life from Me; I lay it down voluntarily on My own authority; and I take it up again on My own authority . . . ”
John 2:19-22
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
22 So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
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Ken as usual you get yourself in a muddle and contradict yourself.
First you say, rightly,
“God as God by nature cannot die”
Then wanting to have your cake and eat it you say,
“But Jesus Christ as one divine person with 2 natures did die (but death does not affect His Divine Nature”!
Such a mess!
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Hey Paul, perhaps you missed my response to you. Here it is copy and pasted;
So. The post does not represent Christianity, yet the title of the blog is clearly that Christianity is debunked. So, this is of course a challenge to Christianity, not the flawed opinion of some random Christian, LOL. You easily contradict yourself. If one asked myself regarding this issue, I would answer Jesus sacrificed Himself because He is SINLESS, He had no sins and so He can take on our sins, unlike man, because all men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Might as well delete your post considering it is misleading, LOL
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I did reply. And no the post stays up.
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I just re-checked the entire comment chain on your blog — nope, no reply. You have not addressed my UTTER DEBUNKING of your misleading post, which will continue to lie to people if it stays up. Sad.
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