Interesting
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ
Yes there are early Hadith collections. One of the claims hurled at Muslims by Christian missionaries and Hadith-rejecters are that they say, “there are no hadiths collections from early Islam”. According to them, Hadith came into existence 250 to 300 years after the Prophet Muhammed’s (p) demise. In this article I will show evidences from non-Muslim Scholars that Hadith existed way before the dates they have brought forth.
First Century Hadith Collections
Sahifa Hamman B. Munabbih
It is well-known fact among Muslim scholars that Hammam B. Munabbih was a student of Abu Huraira. The earliest hadith collection we have extant is Sahifa b. Munabbih which was written by the student of Abu Huraira. The Books name is ‘Sahifah Hammam b.Munabbih’.
1. American Scholar William Albert Graham who is a Professor of middle eastern studies states:
“…..Of the four remaining collections, the earliest is…
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Bukhari’s hadith number in the thousands, these early collections number barely in the hundreds. Hadith inflation is an indication of later additions to the hadith falsely attributed to mohammed.
Hammam’s work consists of just over 100 examples of hearsay, and he was considered to have personally known at least one companion. Think about that – this guy who might have been personaly acquainted with some of the men and women who knew mohammed, could only come up with just over 100 sayings. Bukhari, after a few hundred years somehow manages to produce 7000. Sounds suspicious. LOL.
Abd ar-Razzaq as-San‘ani was not acquainted with any companions, so whatever information he received must have come to him via some anonymous sources – hardly rigourous.
Muwatta is a sad butt-wiped fragment with huge chunks missing from it.
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stupid comments, written by a demented troll.
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http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&ved=0ahUKEwjz3I6XhKjQAhUJopQKHQtEDzkQFghCMAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.se%2Fhome%2Fm9783%2Fir%2Fd2%2Fshla_e.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHIGaFAR6Zrhmc_RrD3hAP_8W_rig
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Great article !
Indeed many scholars of Hadiths had their own writings for hadith such as Hisham ibn Urwah, the grandson of one of the closest companion of the prophet Al Zubair ibn Alwam. Hisham had his own notebook
( Sahifah) in hadiths. His narrations are found in Bukhari. Al zuhri as well.
Alos, many students of hadith forget Musnad Abu Abu Dawud at-Tayalisi which is from the second century. Again, ( Isnad) is a feature for this Ummah.
Christians, on the other hand, have no clue about the authors, the transmitters, and the background of those anonymous books of theirs, yet they believe firmly that they are words of God.
Although they have no argument reagrading the manuscripts for the NT,but let’s forget the NT and deal with OT for a moment. OT is the base of their bible, so if it’s collapsed, the whole bible will get down either.
The Torah was given 3500 yeras ago. Could christians and jews show us any manuscript 500 later of 1500 BC ?
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This is exactly the conundrum the snakes like Graham and others on this blog face. We have Manuscripts for Both the Quran and the Hadith in the lifetime of the narrators who are verified by thousands of Named, identified, known, distinctive people who walked and talked with the profit.
All they have is a mishmash of conjecture from unknown sources who not only were not around or did not meet or even see Jesus (AS) but also admit it in their writings.
So anonymous writings by known fraudsters vs Distinctive people who have been authenticated to the utmost degree who on top of that have met and lived with the source. But apparently this shows some sort of weakness ROFLOL!! I know which one I would rather have.
If this is a “problem” then its a great problem to have.
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Below is a relevant article to read.
http://quransmessage.com/articles/sahifah
I am not saying I agree with all articles in the website in the above link.
This particular article does not refute the article in this post but shows that there is more into it.
We must be mindful that for most of sahih hadith, we don’t have evidence such as this.
Of course the absence of evidence is not evidence for its absence…but we still need to be very careful….submission to God and living a righteous life need’s to be on the strongest of foundations.
Also, we must be mindful that even Ibn Munabbih’s article does not fulfill God’s commandment in
Qur’an (2, 286).
Having said this, I have never said that we should neglect the guidance therein or in other hadith graded as authentic…..indeed we should seek guidance in them but we must test every one under the light of God’s words in the Qur’an (both in the Qur’an’s letter and spirit)…the only text designated as protected in the Qur’an and the only text as designated as what should be our criterion (Furqan).
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Graham,
I appreciate your comments even if I don’t agree with them all.
But I ask you to show more courtesy in your language.
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FOPM(pbuh)
Those links of yours absolutely destroy Kalif Kareems’s post. I have actually come across them before – the Abu Hurayra issue is a huge problem for the hadith. It has been long known that his narrations were largely suspect – it goes to show how easy it is to simply make up hadiths, and how easy it is to make them up for political or religious expediency.
I appreciate your honesty.
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Yawn. Are you aware that most NT scholars consider that some of the letters attributed to Paul are actually forgeries?
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Paul
The opinions of atheist and agnostic scholars is interesting, but the real issue is what does the quran say about Paul’s letters?
Muslims typically claim that the quran “corrects” the previous scriptures – where then in the quran are Paul’s letters “corrected”? Where in the quran is Paul mentioned by name? WHere in the quran are any of the disciples mentioned by name?
You claim to be a muslims, but you rely almost entirely on scholars with an atheistic or agnostic world view – I’m interested in where in the quran allah reveals the supposed forgeries in the NT. Where exactly are the verses where allah tells us that Paul’s letters are forgeries? Why do post-modern atheist scholars know more about the NT than allah?
Regardless, any alleged forgeries in Paul’s letters don’t prove islam, it might prove that the god of islam did not know the NT well enough to comment on it.
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Paul is not mentioned in the Quran. You are obviously changing the subject away from the NT documents.
Many (probably most) NT scholars are actually Christians. They too follow standard historical analysis of ancient texts and they too have concluded that Paul did not write 1&2 Timothy and Titus i.e. They are forgeries. This has nothing to do with Islam at all.
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Abu Hurairah who was a companion of the prophet, who listened from him, talked with him, and fought with him. ate with him , and travelled with him is an issue for christians and their tools !!
On the other hand, paul who had never met Jesus, never talked with him, never listened from him,and never ate with him is a reliable man for christians! Paul’s words and letters which are forgery are the words of God himself !
Which kind of sense or base that we can discuss christians with after then?
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Paul Williams
“Paul is not mentioned in the Quran. You are obviously changing the subject away from the NT documents.”
Bingo!
Christian doctrines and beliefs are not mentioned in the quran – the men who compiled it and made up its content simply did not know what christians believed.
In other words, the quran corrects nothing in the bible.
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The Quran corrects a very important error made by many Christians- the belief that Jesus is God. The Quran makes clear that he is a man like Adam. So repent Mr Hill of your idolatry. It is an offence against the Most High.
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Paul Williams
“The Quran corrects a very important error made by many Christians- the belief that Jesus is God. The Quran makes clear that he is a man like Adam. So repent Mr Hill of your idolatry. It is an offence against the Most High.”
The quran says that jesus was god’s spirit breathed into Mary – hardly a man like Adam. Either way, the quran is confused about jesus and can’t really make up its mind about him so it makes competely contradictory statements about him.
HArdly impressive for a god.
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And you are hardly impressive as a Christian apologist
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Furthermore, I am sorry to say but Abu Hurayra is not very reliable.
Please see http://muslimvilla.smfforfree.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=505.0
I am NOT supporting everything in the article in this link and I am definitely NOT supporting this website which is a anti-hadith website.
I am not at all anti-hadith. I just don’t want to equal heresay claims of what the blessed Prophet said with the words of God Almighty, especially when the Prophet did not commission compilation of his statements during his time or commission for a compilation to be done later on the heresay narrations.
Definitely some, perhaps much of this heresay (which is classified as authentic by fallible medieval well-intentioned and pious men) is from the Prophet because it was a systematic collection ..however, it became quite systematic some decades or at least a century after the Prophet.
Because it was systematic, I am hesitant to call it “heresay” but to some extent is still is so as mentioned and because perhaps over 90% of hadith that went into circulation was fabricated.
Any hadith would definitely not be admissible in any court of law anywhere in the world as evidence.
But we do not even need to go there because God has shown how the majority of sahih hadith claims are not fully reliable (Qur’an, Surah 2, verse 282)
I know this is information that is upsetting to many and my intention is not to upset but I will insha’Allah not hesitate from appreciating the difference between solid evidence and evidence that is not solid.
May God guide us to be open minded and diligent for the truth and not to be stubborn for any side on this matter we are discussing…. for stubbornness is condemned by God in the Qur’an.
And the conscience that God has given us tells us that an obstinate approach is unrighteous approach.
Anyway, I ask anyone who is open minded to read the link above that gives important information on Abu Hurayra that Muslims are usually unaware of but I ask my brothers and sisters to please do not neglect the hadith.
After the Qur’an, the hadith is the second most important text.
Unlike the Qur’an, the hadith is not protected from many errors but it has much guidance in it as well….again the hadith (that are classified as authentic) are important.
We must use our reason that God commands us to us in the Qur’an and we need to take the dust off the Qur’an and have both the spirit and letter of the God’s final testament be the criteria (the Furqan) over the hadith as well as over the Bible.
wa salam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu
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I think you are a liar.
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lol its one of the regular apologists creating another account ROFLOL!
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And to clarify further I am not saying that none of Abu Huraya’s narrations are from the Prophet (pbuh). I assume that many are from the blessed Prophet but taking Abu Huraya’s narrations as a whole, they are not very reliable.
Saying something is not very reliable does not imply that it is always false…it is just that…not sufficiently reliable, especially when taken by itself.
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Abdullah, you can think whatever you want to think.
Those who are open minded and take efforts to read works by the Ulama but also investigate fully and use the Quran as their Furqan, they are free as well.
I recommend all to read Losing My Religion, by Professor Jeffrey Lang, a dedicated Muslim. The book is not about him….he is strong in Islam but about some who have written to him since they see him as open minded and a true researcher and as someone who has submitted to God.
Allah knows best.
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You are a liar. I don’t give one thought for those who try to dismiss the reliability of the prophet’s companions. Companions of the prophet are praised by Quran. You are just a tool for christians. Why should I give one thought for your satanic “open mind” ?
Quran is the Furqan. No doubt! and Because Quran is the Furqan , we believe in hadiths of the prophet.
Your satanic method has nothing to do with Quran. It disagrees with Quran.
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I find it marvelously ironic that Christians claim that the fact that they have hundreds of thousands of manuscripts that are inflationary and contradict each other is a good thing because the real gospel “must be in there somewhere” (Which in itself is mind boggling logic) but then try and say (Incorrectly) that the Hadith are inflationary and added to which is a bad thing. Only then to get smacked down by even a laymen Muslim or an academic.
Such is the desperation that they have resorted to damning themselves in order to try and falsify someone else’s creed.
Its like watching a very bad magician who has very poor slight of hand and you can see him fiddle with his sleeve trying to get a playing card out or hearing a dove inside his hat as it falls off his head. “And for my next trick ladies and gentlemen I will make the water in this glass disappear, I just need you to close your eyes and ignore the gulping sound…
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Abdullah,
As I indicated in a previous post, we will need to agree to disagree.
You may give 20 responses and I will have 20 counter responses. Life is short.
I may agree with you on many other issues but engaging with you on this is not worth the time.
My intention is not for you to give any thoughts to what I am saying. I am only interested to engage with those who pursue the truth and goodness and submission to God regardless of their sectarian desires or other desires.
To all who are open minded, don’t be misled by the simplistic false dichotomies regarding Abdullah’s comment about “companions.”
First, one needs to define one’s terms. Is companion defined in the Qur’an in the way many traditional Muslims see it?
Of course, the people who sacrificed with the Prophet are praised by God in the Qur’an. They are not infallible and they are subject to making many wrong judgements…they did not even have a primary education. They had access to the Prophet which is tremendous but the exposure to the Prophet is overblown. There were dozens of mosques throughout Madina. And the Prophet was a very busy person.
The Qur’an also criticizes companions. And God even tells the Prophet (in the Qur’an) that there are hypocrites in Madina whom even he (the Prophet) does not know.
I do not accept the ridiculous exaggerated attacks on many sahaba by many Shia Muslim scholars.
However, we cannot whitewash history either.
Aisha is reported to have criticized the character of Abu Huraira. Umar is reported to have ended Abu Huraira’s appointment as governor of Bahrain when he accused Abu Hurayah of embezzling public funds for himself.
Abu Huraira befriended Mu’awiyah and was thus made essentially the mayor of Madina.
Mu’awiya was trying to kill the Prophet and many say he converted when his father, Abu Sufyan, the arch enemy of the Prophet, and his mother, Hind (the one had the Prophet’s uncle Hamza killed and who ate Hamza’s liver) conveniently converted which was on the freeing of Makkah by the Prophet (peace be upon him).
I am not making any judgement on Abu Sufyan, Hind, or Mu’awiyah…as the Qur’an says, the past peoples will be recompensed with what they deserve and we will get recompensed with what we deserve.
But it is not wise to look up to those who were enemies of the Prophet until the very end. And after the Prophet died, Mu’awiyah’s greatest enemies were the family of the Prophet. Mu’awiyah assigned his son, Yazid, to succeed him. Yazid had many of the Prophet’s male descendants killed at Karbala and his general had the Prophet’s female descendants enchained and made to travel, sometimes by foot, to Damascus.
Archeological finds of Mu’awiyahs proclamations indicate that he never even mentioned the Prophet when he was ruler.
These are not to support Shia teachings….in general, Shia hadith are weaker than Sunni hadith.
But Abu Huraira had a checkered past.
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The dust on the shoes of Abu- Hurairah is better for me than “your open mind” which is satanic.
Companions of the prophets could have disagreements, but you have no right to be a judge over them while Quran had already told us about them, and how righteous they were.
I can sense that you are from the twelver Shia which is cult having nothing to do with Islam.
“Mu’awiya was trying to kill the Prophet ”
Subhan Allah ! Allah exposed you.
When Quran praised the prophet’s companions, he said after that praising
“so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers.” Surah Fatah:29.
Imam Malik stated that the person who gets enraged because of the companions is a disbeliever based on this vers.
“Abu Huraira had a checkered past.”
Oh ! So I have dismiss Quran to believe in you while you’re just shoes for christians?
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Here is interesting hadith attributed to Abu Huraira that flatly contradicts the Qur’an. God says in the Qur’an that He created the heavens and the earth in 6 days in not just one verse but many verses.
Below is a cartoonish hadith….because it contradicts the Qur’an, it puts a credibility problem on not just Abu Huraira but on the narrators from him to the compiler of Sahih Muslim where it is recorded.
I ask my brothers and sisters to not neglect the hadith by seeing this….we must not throw out the baby with the water. Again, the hadith (recorded as authentic by medieval scholars) should be used by us as a secondary source of guidance but to be scrutinized under the full light of the letter and spirit of the Qur’an.
And I ask my non-Muslim brothers and sisters who have self-respect and care for their eternal afterlife to not be turned off of Islam by cartoonish hadith. The hadith are not protected by God. The Qur’an mentions only the Qur’an as being protected from error by God.
The Qur’an says in 4:82 that we should expect to see contradictions in works that are not from God. And the hadith is not a revelation from God. Although the Prophet Muhammad did receive inspiration from God, we don’t have those recorded in a protected from. The hadith of today follows a long history of human involvement. And thus, we expect to see many errors mixed with many truths.
Abu Huraira reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) took hold of my hands and said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after ‘Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night.
Chain(0) ►
Sryj bin Yonus bin Ibrahim
Harun bin ‘Abdullah al-Hamal ——» Hajjaj bin Muhammad al-Musaysi ——» Ibn Jurayj ——» Isma’il bin Umayya bin ‘Amr ——» Ayoub bin Khalid bin Safwan ——» ‘Abdullah bin Rafa’i ——» Abu Hurairah
English reference: Book 39, Hadith 6707
Arabic reference: Book 53, Hadith 7231
Sahih Muslim
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This hadith has been killed by researches and debates among hadith scholars before the grandfather of your grandfather was even born,but again I will not give any consideration since your satanic thoughts try to dismiss those people whom Quran praised. You labeled them as hypocrites while Quran commanded us to follow their path.
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Above is a cartoonish hadith by Abu Huraira in Sahih Muslim, the second most respected hadith compilation.
Below is a cartoonish hadith by Abu Huraira in Sahih Bukhari, the most respected hadith compilation.
Interestingly, the hadith by itself puts a credibility problem on Abu Huraira since according to the hadith, he did not keep follow the Prophet’s directive in keeping the charity money safe and he released the thief multiple times.
Dear non-Muslim brothers and sisters….do not let this give you wrong idea of Islam.
The Qur’an is not cartoonish like this…far from it…the Qur’an is a miraculous masterpiece from any angle you look at it ….the Qur’an is indeed from God Almighty.
The hadith are just traditions by Muslims over many decades and even centuries.
Dear Muslims, most hadith are not cartoonish…so let us not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle deputed me to keep Sadaqat (al-Fitr) of Ramadan [Charity money collected for poor people to celebrate and eat at end of Ramadan].
A comer came and started taking handfuls of the foodstuff (of the Sadaqa) (stealthily). I took hold of him and said, “By Allah, I will take you to Allah’s Apostle .” He said, “I am needy and have many dependents, and I am in great need.”
I released him, and in the morning Allah’s Apostle asked me, “What did your prisoner do yesterday?” I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! The person complained of being needy and of having many dependents, so, I pitied him and let him go.” Allah’s Apostle said, “Indeed, he told you a lie and he will be coming again.” I believed that he would show up again as Allah’s Apostle had told me that he would return.
So, I waited for him watchfully. When he (showed up and) started stealing handfuls of foodstuff, I caught hold of him again and said, “I will definitely take you to Allah’s Apostle. He said, “Leave me, for I am very needy and have many dependents. I promise I will not come back again.” I pitied him and let him go.
In the morning Allah’s Apostle asked me,
“What did your prisoner do.” I replied, “O Allah’s Apostle! He complained of his great need and of too many dependents, so I took pity on him and set him free.” Allah’s Apostle said, “Verily, he told you a lie and he will return.” I waited for him attentively for the third time, and when he (came and) started stealing handfuls of the foodstuff, I caught hold of him and said, “I will surely take you to Allah’s Apostle as it is the third time you promise not to return, yet you break your promise and come.”
He said, “(Forgive me and) I will teach you some words with which Allah will benefit you.” I asked, “What are they?” He replied, “Whenever you go to bed, recite “Ayat-al-Kursi”– ‘Allahu la ilaha illa huwa-l-Haiy-ul Qaiyum’ till you finish the whole verse. (If you do so), Allah will appoint a guard for you who will stay with you and no satan will come near you till morning. ”
So, I released him. In the morning, Allah’s Apostle asked, “What did your prisoner do yesterday?” I replied, “He claimed that he would teach me some words by which Allah will benefit me, so I let him go.” Allah’s Apostle asked, “What are they?” I replied, “He said to me, ‘Whenever you go to bed, recite Ayat-al-Kursi from the beginning to the end —- Allahu la ilaha illa huwa-lHaiy-ul-Qaiyum—-.’ He further said to me, ‘(If you do so), Allah will appoint a guard for you who will stay with you, and no satan will come near you till morning.’ (Abu Huraira or another sub-narrator) added that they (the companions) were very keen to do good deeds. The Prophet said, “He really spoke the truth, although he is an absolute liar. Do you know whom you were talking to, these three nights, O Abu Huraira?” Abu Huraira said, “No.” He said, “It was Satan.”
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Imam Malik was mentioned.
Here is an interesting report….
Qādī ʿIyād in his Tartīb al-Madarik says:
ʿAtiq al-Zubayrī said: “Mālik included some ten thousand ḥadīths in his Muwaṭṭaʾ. Each year he would revise it and drop some narrations from therein so much so that we are left with this amount of it. Had he lived longer he would have dropped the rest of it.”
I am of course not saying that all of Muwatta, perhaps the most authentic book when it deals with hadith, has no authentic narrations…but the comment above is interesting.
Abdullah, you and me have very different understandings.
I am fearful from Allah for equating the words of the One who gave everything existence to words composed by men attributed to the Prophet which violate Qur’an (2, 282) in multiple ways.
For the people who don’t know for the past many centuries, Allah (swt) will forgive them. Allah (swt) judges all fairly based on their intentions…on what they know.
After research I cannot in good conscience and in fear of my afterlife, I will not take the approach you are set on.
My comments were not for you in the previous posts as it is not fruitful to discuss with you on this specific topic…so you need not bother.
Fi Aman Allah
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Bismillah,
First of all, what Atiq said has nothing to do with that fact that you are from those who get enraged by the companions of the prophet and by that sense you’re just a brother for twelver Shia. Your method is satanic no doubt!
Second, what Atiq said is against you! It means that scholars of hadith are so critical regarding hadiths. Why didn’t quote what Alzamy said about this saying of Atiq? Read what Ali ibn Madini said that Imam Malik was so selective and critical when he put hadiths in his book in such that even Atiq “thought” if Imam Malik had lived, he would’ve canceled all this collection.
This is very normal for all Scholar of hadiths. Imam Al Bukhari, there are 2 phases for his collection.
The first one is to record and collect all what he hears, then the second phase is to produce a book containing just authentic one based in very vigorous standards.
But because you have stanic mind, you try to dismiss this view.
If you are not a twelver, you’re a shoe for christians. Twelvers and persons like you have been always shoes for christians and jews.
Then have you noticed that you keep quoting stories from hadiths and book of history to prove your point? Why?
Intention! Intentions made MGA claim the he is a the prince of peace and a prophet after the last prophet to correct what Abu Huraira was lying about the prophet.
I know many people like you who ended up rejecting Islam itself which is the normal way for those who reject the the prophet and his companions.
To end this game and to show readers how liar you are, I need to prove that Umar ended Abu Hurairah as governor because he was embezzling public funds for himself although you keep telling us that we should not trust hadiths.
May Allah expose you.
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And you can think whatever you want to think…but no, I am not Twelver Shia.
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Be a christian or a jew or even a shoe ! I don’t care as long as you try to dismiss the reliability of the prophet’s companions.
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Regarding rage, it is apparent that it is you who are in consumed in the state of rage and cannot think rationally.
I love Imam Malik and the care he took. I think Muwatta is a good book but we cannot assume it, a man made effort to be 100% authentic.
Even Imam Malik did not view it as such.
I am not dismissing the companions. The way the word “companion” has become a technical term and is interpreted some to be anyone who even saw the Prophet is quite unfortunate as long as he was a Muslim.
I love those who sacrificed themselves for the Prophet.
Most of the companions did not engage in transmitting narrations. This whole obsession over hadith developed over time for a various of factors.
You need to study religion 101 and historical aspects of religions.
I am not saying that Islam is not in its pristine form…it is and we have it…and that is the Qur’an. Everything else is secondary and I honestly believe that with the knowledge we have today, many of use will be accountable before God if we force the secondary to be controlling the primary even when it contradicts the letter and often he spirit of the primary.
Aspects of Twelver Shia Islam developed over many decades and even over centuries.
Aspects of proto-Sunni Islam developed over many decades and even over centuries, although I would say that in general Shia Islam evolved and changed more than Sunni Islam.
There was this dynamic interaction between Shia and Sunni histories.
The obsession over this construct of “companion” and the elaborate devotion to them developed in response to other historical developments and in particular to the narrative that Shia Muslims were voicing regarding political and other issues.
Again, I am not dismissing the “companions.”
Not only am I completely against neglecting hadith but we need to rather embrace hadith as an important source for guidance but only under the intense light of the letter AND spirit of the Qur’an and with a sustained and concerted use of reason (which God demands us to use over and over and over again in the Qur’an as the key hermeneutic.
Drop it. You are only digging a bigger and bigger hole as you go on.
I have heard all the arguments that you have mentioned many times before.
Like I said, you can give twenty responses and I will give 20 counters responses that I believe adequately address your points. It is not a constructive use of time.
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You’ve accused Abu Hurairah for stealing Money just to prove your satanic view. May Allah expose you. How dare you?
Abu Hurairah who migrated from his town to meet the prophet. He was sleeping in the mosque of the prophet. Why did you think he was doing that? Sometimes, days pass without eating. What have you done for Islam, so that you can see yourself as a judge over those righteous people?
Oh! Maybe setting on a comfortable couch chatting on internet?
I really don’t give S*IT for your satanic excuses. You’re like your brothers ,the twelvers. Then stop labelling the issue with that cult as “sectarian issue”. You compare the Ummah who transmitted Quran and Sunnah with a cult having no Isnad for Quran nor Sunnah? The whole population for that cult is 5-7% of Islamic population.
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I forgot to add to my response that with regards to your repeated epithets for me to be exposed…I never claimed to be the last word on this complex issue.
I pray for only the truth to be disclosed. As you know the covering up of truth is what the word kufr literally means.
I am all for full disclosure.
I believe that it is clear the that unassailable protected revelation is the Qur’an. And I strongly believe that it is you and others who are unwittingly misrepresenting Islam which helps the anti-Islam narrow minded bigots.
If I am wrong, I ask for Allah’s forgiveness. For sure, I would not be right on every detail on this complex and vast topic.
But we cannot close the inquiry as long as it based on good intentions to seek the truth and to avoid preconceived assumptions.
I am not asking anyone to believe me but just to keep an open mind and to read and read and read as I have done.
A good book to start with is the Mathematics professor, Dr. Jeffrey Lang’s book I cited before.
Abdullah, I am not eager to continue this acrimonious discussion…I believe that you are consumed by sectarian rage and that you cannot think good of one who disagrees with you on this particular issue.
Fee Aman Allah and salam
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Abdullah, I did not accuse Abu Hurairah of stealing money. I simply transmitted a narration that says that Caliph Umar dismissed Abu Hurairah on grounds that he suspected him of embezzling funds. Abu Hurairah denied it and I assume Caliph Umar was not sure or believed Abu Hurairah or dropped the issue since nothing seems to have happened to Abu Hurairah on that issue.
I am not judging over him or anyone. I am not saying that I am better than him, astaghfirullah.
I believe that if I accept his narrations or narrations that are alleged to be from him to be 100% truth, then I believe based on my research that this will be harmful to me….I also believe that if I dismiss all narrations coming from him, then that will be harmful to me also.
But there are other issues such as his involvement of people who transmitted Israiliyat…I don’t know if Abu Hurairah transmitted them also but he seemed to be very close to one or more who did so…and these Israiliyat tall tales introduced many false silly tales into Muslim folklore and hadith had not the great muhadithoon sifted most of them out.
I believe that I am commanded to use the Qur’an as the Furqan and I am commanded to use my God-given powers of reason.
Abdullah, let’s cut this short.
What percentage of error do you think a narrator had in transmitting a narration?….include all ways an error can happen….through memory mistake…through misunderstanding what he heard…through obfuscating the true source and passing it on as if having heard from a more respected source, of isnad theft…of distorting for “pious” purposes of encouraging a good action or trying to compensate for a false narration on the opposite side, etc.
What percentage of error would you say a narrator X had in transmitting a tradition to narrator Y?
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You’re just a snake!
” I did not accuse Abu Hurairah of stealing money. I simply transmitted a narration that says that Caliph Umar dismissed Abu Hurairah on grounds that he suspected him of embezzling funds. ”
Why did you post a”narration” while you try to tell us we shouldn’t trust narrations in the first place?!
Then don’t try to play an innocent man. It’s clear that you did what you did to dismiss Abu Hurairah and his integrity.
“Caliph Umar was not sure or believed Abu Hurairah or dropped the issue since nothing seems to have happened to Abu Hurairah on that issue.”
If you’re not sure what that narration says, then you’re just a liar!
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وإن هم إلا يخرصون
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Bismillah,
Abdullah,
I never said that the narration on Caliph Umar regarding Abu Hurairah is 100% reliable.
That’s my whole point….narrations are not fully reliable. They are heresay….the Muhadithoon made a systematic study off of it after several decades or a century.
This heresay is not even admissible in a court of law anywhere in any country unless the person who is attributed with the narration can be cross examined in court.
Again, let us cut it short….
What percentage of error do you think a narrator had in transmitting a narration?….include all ways an error can happen….through memory mistake…through misunderstanding what he heard…through obfuscating the true source and passing it on as if having heard from a more respected source, of isnad theft…of distorting for “pious” purposes of encouraging a good action or trying to compensate for a false narration on the opposite side, etc.
What percentage of error would you say a narrator X had in transmitting a tradition to narrator Y?
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Bismillah,
Salam Abdullah,
Will you be answering my question which is a critical core of our disagreement?
I am getting the sense that you are avoiding to answer it.
What percentage of error do you think a narrator had in transmitting a narration?….include all ways an error can happen….through memory mistake…through misunderstanding what he heard…through obfuscating the true source and passing it on as if having heard from a more respected source, of isnad theft…of distorting for “pious” purposes of encouraging a good action or trying to compensate for a false narration on the opposite side, etc.
What percentage of error would you say a narrator X had in transmitting a tradition to narrator Y?
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