Christian doctrine of ‘God incarnate’ impossible says the Bible!

Leading American preacher John Piper inadvertently refutes his own Christian faith in the incarnation of God – by quoting the Bible!

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Categories: Bible, Christianity, God

106 replies

  1. Some Christians can never seem to connect the dots. Such cognitive dissonance never ceases to amaze!

    Liked by 3 people

    • But your god can be contained in a tree:

      When he saw a fire, and said to his family, ‘Tarry you here; I observe a fire. Perhaps I shall bring you a brand from it, or I shall find at the fire guidance.’ When he came TO IT, A VOICE CRIED, ‘Moses, I AM THY LORD; put off thy shoes; thou art in the holy valley, Towa. I Myself have chosen thee; therefore give thou ear to this revelation. S. 20:10-13 Arberry

      When Moses said to his people ‘I observe a fire, and will bring you news of it, or I will bring you a flaming brand, that haply you shall warm yourselves.’ So, when he came TO IT, he was called: ‘Blessed IS HE WHO IS IN THE FIRE, and he who is about it. Glory be to God, the Lord of all Being! Moses, behold, it is I, God, the All-mighty, the All-wise. S. 27:7-9 Arberry

      Then, when Musa (Moses) had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he saw a fire in the direction of Tur (Mount). He said to his family: “Wait, I have seen a fire; perhaps I may bring to you from there some information, or a burning fire-brand that you may warm yourselves.” So when he reached IT (the fire), he was called from the right side of the valley, in the blessed place FROM THE TREE: “O Musa (Moses)! Verily! I AM ALLAH, the Lord of the ‘Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!” S. 28:29-30 Hilali-Khan

      Allah, who supposedly cannot enter his creation, not only entered into it but actually entered into a tree and in the fire which didn’t consume the tree! Go figure.

      Now what was that about cognitive dissonance?

      Like

    • PWPoF,
      In regard to 20:10-13 it simply states that a voice spoke to Moses while he was AT the fire, not that the voice (or God himself) was within the fire. In regard to the other two verses they are in relation to God speaking to Moses by projecting the divine message from within or through the tree or fire, and there is no evidence to substantiate a claim that God was contained within either.

      You are reading your own false interpretation into the text. No Muslim actually believes that God can be contained within anything, such as a tree, fire, or let alone a human being as Christians falsely believe.

      Nice try, but fail – Looks like your own pants are on fire!

      Liked by 5 people

    • PWPoF,
      In regard to your misinterpretation of Qur’anic verses as meaning that God was contained within the fire,
      I quote the following:

      First of all, it is noteworthy that none of commentators ever mentioned that Moses had seen Allah or that Allah had appeared to him. Also, none ever mentioned that Allah was the fire or the light itself!

      The best scenario Christians can reach is that Moses saw the fire/light and heard Allah’s words coming from there. Commentators’ saying that Allah was in the fire neither means that He (swt) manifested in a bodily form on earth nor that Moses saw Allah, since we know that Arabic preposition (fi) – i.e., in – does not necessarily mean inside.

      This is a fatal blow to the Christian objection.

      Secondly, let’s ponder upon the following hadith:
      ‘Ali ibn Muhammad said: Wakee’ said: al-Mas’udi said: from ‘amro ibn Murrah from Abi ‘Ubaidah from Abi Musa that he said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Verily the Exalted and Mighty God does not sleep, and it does not befit Him to sleep. He lowers the scale and lifts it. His veil is the light. If he withdraws it (the veil), the splendour of His countenance would consume His creation so far as His sight reaches.
      Then Abu ‘Ubaidah recited: {Blessed is He who is in the fire, and he who is about it. Exalted be Allah, the Lord of all Being}
      Sunan Ibn Majah, n. 169, 1/71.

      Sheikh al-Albani said it is Sahih. Sahih Sunan Ibn Majah, n. 162, p. 39.

      The hadith in Sahih Muslim reads: His veil is the light. In the hadith narrated by Abu Bakr (instead of the word” light” ) it is fire.
      Sahih Muslim, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 343.

      So, this fire or light was Allah’s veil, and the meaning of the verse is: (Blessed is Allah whose veil is fire and angels about it) .. This fire/light was extending between heaven and earth as commentators say (Cf. Tafsir Ibn Kathir) which does not necessitate Allah being on earth at all.

      Imam al-Suyuti comments on the hadith of Ibn Majah:
      Abu ‘Ubaidah’s purpose of recitation of this verse is that Moses – despite his greatness – was prevented by fire from seeing Allah (swt) and he did not see Him (swt), that’s why Allah exalted Himself saying (Exalted be Allah, the Lord of all Being), i.e., He is exalted above being seen in this world.
      al-Suyuti, Sharh Sunan Ibn Majah, 1/18.

      In conclusion, Moses has seen great light/fire extending between heaven and earth. This light/fire is actually Allah’s veil through which Moses heard Allah’s words and voice. The reports saying that Allah was in the fire does not mean He (swt) was literally inside it, it simply means that this fire – extending between heaen and earth – is His veil and He (swt) talked to Moses through this veil. And the reports saying that the fire was Allah’s light are understood in this context, i.e., Allah’s light is His veil, neither His Essence nor attribute.http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=705

      And also:

      Tafsir al-Baghwi says that the meaning of these reports is that Allah called Moses and made him hear His voice from the fire, not that He (swt) was inside the fire, Ibn al-Jawzi and al-Qurtubi said the same.

      http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=705

      Liked by 2 people

    • just simple clarification. as you know ibn issam i am not native english speaker, but please tell me, when did the word “voice” imply the full embodiment of a person?

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    • Heathcliff,
      Exactly, and good point!

      Sam incorrectly seems to think that a voice implies embodiment.

      In regard to the other two verses: The preposition (fi) doesn’t necessarily mean “in” or “inside”; it could mean “on” as in Surat Taha:71 or “with” as in Surat al-Naml:12, Cf. Ibn Faris, al-Sahibi p. 239. http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=705

      Again, either way, there is no evidence to substantiate the ridiculous claim that God was contained or embodied within the fire or tree.

      Liked by 2 people

  2. What is odd is that Sam cares noting about his Bible which refutes his own Christian faith in the incarnation of God! As long as he is attacking Islam he is happy.

    Liked by 3 people

    • His aim is to constantly attack Islam in a transparent attempt to repeatedly deflect attention away from the weaknesses in Christian doctrines.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Paul Paul Paul you really should and I believe do no better than this…

      1 Kings 8:10-13 “Then Solomon said, “When the priests withdrew from the Holy Place, the cloud filled the temple of the Lord. 11 And the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled his temple.

      12 Then Solomon said, “The Lord has said that he would dwell in a dark cloud; 13 I have indeed built a magnificent temple for you, a place for you to dwell forever.”

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    • so the Bible contradicts itself?

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    • Correction: 1 Kings 8:10-13 “Then Solomon said,

      There is no “Then Solomon said” in verse 10 thats actually from verses 12

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    • your god is cloud , fire , spirit , flesh

      anything else?

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    • 18And the Lord said to David my father, ‘Since it was in your heart to build a house unto My NAME, you did well that it was in your heart.

      29That Your eyes may be open toward this house night and day, toward the place which You said, ‘My Name will be there;’ to listen to the prayer that Your servant will pray toward this place.

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  3. You think God is spacial ? (occupies physical space)

    You mis-understand the text of 2 Chronicles 2:6 and 1 Kings 8:27

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    • your god became spacial lol

      Liked by 4 people

    • ‘You think God is spacial ? (occupies physical space)’

      That is exactly what you believe!

      But the bible refutes you.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Except the Father and the Holy Spirit did not become human; so you are wrong about that.

      http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man

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    • @Ken,

      i have a question for you and all Trinitarians.

      You describe God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit as ONE substance. You maintain full consubstantiality and deny that the three are parts of God’s essence. [Let me know if I have misidentified your view].

      If all three Persons are co-substantial and this key point allows you in your mind to distinguish the Trinity idea from say three human persons share humanity but are still three human beings. but three God persons share God-ness but are not three Gods.

      How can only one person in a fully co-substantial being become flesh and experience hunger[Psalms 106:20], dependency on air[Isaiah 2:22], limits to knowledge[Ezekiel 28:3] and temptation[James 1:13] but still remain God?

      Liked by 2 people

    • the illustration of “three persons share humanity” is not parallel because God created lots of human beings; whereas with God, there is only ONE being of God (one being, one substance, one nature, one essence).

      Since there is only ONE God, and God is unique; the illustration does not follow.

      How can only one person in a fully co-substantial being become flesh and experience hunger[Psalms 106:20], dependency on air[Isaiah 2:22], limits to knowledge[Ezekiel 28:3] and temptation[James 1:13] but still remain God?

      Because only one of the three persons became human and took on those human weaknesses (John 1:1-5; John 1:14); and the Scriptures show us that Jesus is both human and God – Philippians 2:6-8

      “Although existing in the form of God (=being by substance/essence God), He did not regard equality with God the Father as something to held onto at all costs; but laid aside the full privilege of God’s use of all of His attributes, taking the form of a slave, and being made in the likeness of man, and being found in reality as a man on earth, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” (Philippians 2:6-8)

      Like

    • as something to held onto at all costs;
      should have been
      as something to hold onto at all costs;

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    • “the illustration of “three persons share humanity” is not parallel” …

      It is parallel. 7 billion human beings all share being human. They all share the same human nature.

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    • It is not parallel because there is only ONE God. Mark 12:29

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    • you know why philipians is a lie?

      if god sees the past, present and future
      has power over the past, present and future
      controls past, present and future

      then there was never “a time” he “emptied himself”

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    • Philippians is God-breathed / inspired Scripture.

      God the Son/eternal Word (John 1:1-5) entered into history and time for those 33 years. John 1:14

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    • Philippians does not claim to be canonical scripture or the Word of God.

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    • Yes it does, by its content, apostolic authority to a local church, Paul’s commands to follow his example (3:17) and obey God (2:12-13), even when he is not there. It is inherent in the way the apostle Paul describes his apostleship of Jesus Christ, “for the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7) and writes about “the faith”(1:27) and “for the defense and confirmation of the gospel” (1:7) and “I am appointed for the defense of the gospel” (1:16), and “to all the saints” (1:1 and 1:27)- shows it was part of “the faith once for all delivered to all the saints” (Jude 3)

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    • You fail to make a plausible argument Ken. I am not disputing Paul saw himself as an apostle in the way you cite him. No. I dispute your unsubstantiated claim that Paul says he is writing canonical scripture on a par with the Jewish Scriptures. He nowhere says that.
      Catholics apologetics on this question are more convincing.

      Like

    • In your own mind. You are free to delude yourself in your own mind.

      All of Paul’s letters on par with Tanakh – 2 Tim. 3:15 is about Tanakh, and 3:16 expands to all Scripture, Gospels (1 Tim. 5:18 – gospels on par with Torah) and 2 Peter 3:16 – all of Paul’s letters are Scripture.

      Like

    • Bizarre and implausible view. You will believe what you want to Ken.

      Liked by 1 person

    • It was the Christian view ever since end of First Century AD.

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    • But the letters of Paul themselves do not claim to be a new canon of scripture. That is my point which you have not refuted. You are now sliding into a more Catholic view.

      Liked by 1 person

    • the early centuries are consistent with little “c” catholic and Protestantism, but not Roman Catholicism (with centuries later developed false doctrines of the Pope, over-exalting Mary, praying to statues, relic trafficking, Purgatory, Indulgences, Transubstantiation, etc. – false doctrines and man-made traditions.

      The Roman Catholic view is that the Church authoritatively Decided which books were canon.

      The Protestant view is that the early church discerned, discovered, witnessed to, what was already God-breathed by their authenticating content and doctrine and power.

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    • you know why philipains is a lie?

      if God in His DIVINE powers SIMULTANEOUSLY sees, controls and have power over everything and CREATES everything, then god can’t be creating himself in creation.

      philipains is a lie .

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    • “It is not parallel because there is only ONE God. Mark 12:29”

      It is parallel because “ONE God” in trinitarianism mean one divine nature, one “ousia” one divine “what”.
      Ask your fellow James White.

      Or are you saying there is only one divine “Who”? Are you unitarian after all?

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    • trinitairians are a confused people

      miraculously their “one god” or “one what” becomes “alive” and “conscious” as if it is another PERSON

      Liked by 1 person

  4. Hi Paul
    So where does your God dwell according to Islam and the koran?

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Hi Abu Talhah
    If it is absurd can you explain to me from your koran how does the human race on the earth?

    Does he enter the physical realm what does he do to help Muslims in a practical way.

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    • dc, every single day are you experiencing the next day and the next day and the next day? is everything being brought into existence? if yes, then when god enters into creation, does he bring himself into existence when he becomes corporeal?

      when your god is in creation, can you explain why he isn’t changing. if he isn’t changing , then is he separate from creation? if he is separate, then is he really in creation?

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    • Hi Heathcliff
      Why dont you answer the question how does Allah help Muslims on the earth without entering this realm?

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    • using an analogy

      you are controlling radio controlled plane from the ground

      do you need to be in the radio controlled plane to control it?

      for this reason this question

      “Does he enter the physical realm what does he do to help Muslims in a practical way.”

      is not relevant .

      christian religion wants people to smell, taste, touch ,feel, ALMIGHTY (may God forgive me for saying such nonsense)

      in your religion god becomes something physical and has full human experiences.

      i would go far and say that you worship a CREATURE which can have physical human experiences without even adding flesh into his nature

      your god is clearly bound and limited and only through the flesh can he be known .

      why would you want to worship a god like that?

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    • Hey Mr Heathcliff

      You said…your god is clearly bound and limited and only through the flesh can he be known .

      Can please explain to me how as a human being does Allah make himself known to YOU?

      Which was partly the question I gave earlier.

      So again can you explain how Allah does this and by the way is Allah everywhere?

      Like

    • “Can please explain to me how as a human being does Allah make himself known to YOU?

      Which was partly the question I gave earlier.

      So again can you explain how Allah does this and by the way is Allah everywhere?”

      one cannot feel God in the way people can see, smell and experience people around them.

      So the only way God is known is through observing His creation and listening to His revelation.

      other than that, nobody on this planet see, touch, feel , hold and smell God.

      Like

    • “How does the human race on the earth?”

      Oh, all manner of ways. By foot, horse and camel, bicycle, automobile, airplane. Why I’m relatively certain people even race on ostriches; okay, that may have been a fever dream.

      😂

      Does “who” enter the physical realm? God? No, such a thing is impossible.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Abu Talhah
      How do you know its impossible? Please explain from the koran.

      Liked by 1 person

    • I will, but first you have to explain to me how you know Madagascar exists – explain from the Bible.

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    • I’m also really curious as to why you’d request an explanation from a source of information you don’t accept as valid anyway. Really strange.

      Do you not accept rational conclusions based on logic?

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    • Hi Abu Talhah
      So I’m not allowed to learn? I would be a shallowminded person if I only read books that agreed with me.

      If you can’t answer me just let me know.

      Like

    • Well you’re already a shallowminded person for requesting an explanation from ONE source, excluding all others, whether you accept it or not.

      I’ll explain it, I just want to know why you’re playing games first.

      Liked by 1 person

    • i think i have already answered your question by giving hundreds of hints in my responses but you being “defend krist” is one of those stubborn man worshipping pagans .

      God controls from that which transcends space and time.

      NOBODY knows how

      NOBODY

      Nobody knows how God can inspire someone

      know my question

      when was the last time you smell, touch, taste and experince your god>

      ken temple believes that god is “spirit” and has no FEELINGS i.e when he overshadowed his mum, know PHYSICAL feeling was there

      so tell me, how do you experience your god?

      is it subjective experience?

      Like

    • defendchrist

      December 14, 2016 • 10:34 am

      Hi Abu Talhah

      If it is absurd can you explain to me from your koran how does the human race on the earth?
      Does he enter the physical realm what does he do to help Muslims in a practical way

      I say;
      Bill Gates created Microsoft Windows and Steve Jobs/Steve Wozniak created Apple MacIntosh. They debug, patch and maintain their systems everyday.

      Do you find Bill Gates in Windows 10? When you open apple MacBook pro and remove the motherboard can you find Steve Jobs or Steve Wozniak in there?

      They are creators who help the systems they create without entering into it. They cannot enter into computers and software because it is impossible.

      They are not software and cannot enter into software, yet they know everywhere in the software and knows the feelings of the software they created.

      They know the feelings of the hardware they created. If a processor is getting hot, they know and will control it to be cool with fan and heat sink without getting into the computer themselves because it is impossible for them to enter into computer for they are not computers.

      In similar way, Allah(God) is our creator and cannot enter into our creation because He is not a creature. He knows our feelings and anything because he created all and is close to us and help us like Bill Gates is using his cloud based system to help all his servers without physical present in the computers because he cannot for he is their creator.

      In Islam we do not use Christian confusing words for God and I mentioned that to you. We do not use these for God

      emanate
      reveal
      dwell
      in dwell
      relieve
      empty
      emptied
      physical
      enter(to enter where? when He created everything)
      originate
      generate etc.

      All the above are the pagan concepts of God and words they use to create their gods on earth. defendchrist is fond of asking question for that. We must forgive defendchrist and explain to him that such words are not used for God in Islam.

      We will know the above when we enter heaven and May Allah put us all in heaven and change the Christians heart to embrace Islam and enter heaven with us. Ameen.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 2 people

  6. Some Christians claim inhabitation by the HG and/or Jesus???

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  7. Hi
    Can I have some intelligent Muslims give me a decent answer to my questions who are suppose to have the truth

    1. Is Allah everywhere.

    2. And how does he help Muslims in a practical way without entering the physical realm.

    3. When you go to heaven will you be with Allah?

    I have intellect and Mr Hearhcliff talking nonsense.

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    • You must have been ignoring cognitive dissonance and self-contradictory garbage for so long that you’ve become immune to it and suffered permanent damage to any ability to think rationally. Mr. Heathcliffe and Intellect are talking all the sense in the world.

      1. Not a valid question. “Where” doesn’t apply to Allah. Location is for bodies, and Allah is not a body.

      2. By pre-eternally willing that aid, assistance, provision, et cetera should come at a certain time.

      3. See answer #1.

      Liked by 2 people

    • you are just arrogant dc. and bother intellect made much better points than me.

      Like

    • Hi Mr Heathcliff
      Who said anything about God becoming a man? All I’m trying to find out is how Allah helps Muslims in a world he cannot enter.

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    • okay, lets just say we do SEE and HEAR ALLAH

      how does that mean he could become a man ?

      LOL

      Like

    • Defend,
      1. Is Allah everywhere?

      – Allah is incorporeal and cannot be seen in this life. But in a figurative or unknown way he is near to us, all-seeing all knowing. Given that Allah is so near to us that he knows our inner thoughts then he also knows how we feel as well.

      We created man and We know what his own self whispers to him. We are nearer to him than his jugular vein. ~ Surah Qaf: 16)

      If My servants ask you about Me, I am near. I answer the call of the caller when he calls on Me. They should therefore respond to Me and believe in Me so that hopefully they will be rightly guided. ~Surat al-Baqara: 186

      Do you not see that Allah knows what is in the heavens and on the Earth? Three men cannot confer together secretly without Him being the fourth of them, or five without Him being the sixth of them, or fewer than that or more without Him being with them wherever they are. Then He will inform them on the Day of Resurrection of what they did. Allah has knowledge of all things. ~Surat al-Mujadala: 7

      2. “And how does he help Muslims in a practical way without entering the physical realm? Can please explain to me how as a human being does Allah make himself known to YOU?”

      – Allah both makes himself known to us, and helps Muslims in a practical way every single day through his divine revelatory guidance in Qur’an, which brings success in this life, and clarifies the path to everlasting salvation. He helps in many other practical way everyday to numerous to count:

      And if you were to count Allah’s favors, you would not be able to number them; most surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. ~ Sūrah al-Nahl: 18

      “Which is it, of the Favours of your Lord, that ye deny?” ~Surat Rahman

      Liked by 2 people

    • Hi Ibn Issam
      Thanks a lot! It easier to communicate if I where someone is coming from in their responses.

      I wish people would not act like paranoid policemen who think everyone is a robber.

      Thank you!

      Liked by 1 person

    • Imam Malik

      Abdullah ibn Nafi’ reported: Malik ibn Anas said: “Allah is above the heavens, but His knowledge encompasses everything. Nothing escapes His knowledge.” [Abdullah ibn Ahmad, As-Sunnah, and others]

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    • Kitāb as-Sunnah is an anthropomorphist forgery. Saying Allah is “above” in such a manner (i.e. literally) is still essentially calling Him a body. No point arguing with anthropomorphists using anthropomorphism.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. Hi Heathcliff
    I don’t want hints I want the koran or other Islamic works

    And ask Intellect to explain without certain words how Allah knows how we feel.

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    • okay, lets just say we do SEE and HEAR ALLAH

      how does that mean he could become a man ?

      Like

    • If you’re now accepting works of Islamic theology, I have a passage from `Aqā’id Nasafī that I’ve translated…

      Like

    • defendchrist

      December 14, 2016 • 1:54 pm

      Hi Heathcliff

      I don’t want hints I want the koran or other Islamic works
      And ask Intellect to explain without certain words how Allah knows how we feel

      I say;
      Allah created how we feel and it means He knows it. If He does not know how we feel, He could not have created how we feel. Do you get it now?

      Thanks.

      Like

  9. Abu Talhah
    You wrote this…1. Not a valid question. “Where” doesn’t apply to Allah. Location is for bodies, and Allah is not a body.

    Well tell me what does apply to Allah what does Allah consist of?

    It seems to me you guys can’t show me where Allah says he is everywhere but yet you have all the answers for why the Christian position can’t be true.

    To say “not a valid question” is simply not good enough

    Like

    • “What does Allah consist of?”

      Another invalid question. You’re asking what Allah is MADE OF, but Allah isn’t MADE. What part of “not a body” (which I’ve said at least three times now) isn’t sinking in?

      “Can’t show me where Allah says He is everywhere.”

      He doesn’t, and Muslims don’t hold that belief. Believeing Allah is either “everywhere” or in a certain “location” are BOTH heresies.

      “To say ‘invalid question’ is simply not good enough.”

      Except that’s not all I said. I explained why it’s an invalid question. Your ability to comprehend is simply not good enough.

      Here’s an example of the sort of invalid questions you’re asking: “How many sides does a point have?”

      Liked by 2 people

    • Abu Talha,

      Do you think saying Allah is above the throne means He is confined in a space as we understand it?

      Muslims from the time of the first generations affirmed the following about Allah-
      1. Allah is unlike His creation
      2. Allah is not dependent on His creation
      3. There was Allah and there was nothing with Him. Then He brought creation into being.
      4. Allah is beyond His creation in a manner that befits His majesty. The nature of His being is beyond our comprehension. But He is unlike His creation.

      We affirm what Allah and His Messenger tell us while negating any likeness to His creation and also negating any notion of dependency upon anything.

      Liked by 2 people

  10. No, not saying “above the throne” in general. Because this is interpreted to mean in status rather than direction or location by Ahl as-Sunnah. The quote attributed to Imam Malik shared by Brother Paul implies the specification of literal “aboveness,” which is spatial (and an absurd impossibility when attributed to Allah) rather than figurative.

    Liked by 1 person

    • That is to say, making such a statement in a discussion percipitated by Christians about “WHERE” Allah is, is to specify that “aboveness” as a literal place; that, in turn, necessitates belief in Allah being a body: tajsīm in Arabic.

      Like

  11. For anyone who might find this pertinent, an excerpt from `Aqīdah Nasafiyyah, a basic reference for the Māturīdī school of Sunni theology (translation is my own):

    “The universe, with all of its constituent parts being either “substances” or “accidents,” is thus originated. The “substance” is that which exists as a thing of its own; this refers either to the “body,” which is any composite, or the “quantum,” which is any noncompound, indivisible particle. The “accident” is whatever characteristic whose subsistence is dependent upon or given rise to by bodies or quanta – such as colors, states of being, flavors, and scents.

    The Originator of the universe is Allah Most High – The One Indivisible, The Pre-eternal, The Ever-living, The Omnipotent, The Omniscient, The All-hearing, The All-seeing, The One Who Wants, and The One Who Wills. He is not possessed of accidents, neither is he a body, nor a quantum; it therefore follows that he is neither delineated, delimited, nor enumerable. He is not divisible into areas or parts, therefore not some kind of amalgamation. His existence is not limited in duration. He cannot be attributed with that which sets Him apart from others (i.e. quiddity, because there is none like Him) or modal quality. He cannot be said to have a location, and He is not carried along the flow of time. Nothing resembles Him in any way whatsoever, and there is nothing that could subtract from His knowledge or might.”

    Liked by 1 person

    • It’s too bad you picked completely wrong “other words.” You’re stuck in the tiny mindset of an idol worshiper.

      Just look at that question. Omnipresent? Did you not understand a single thing in that passage?

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  12. Too much salafism makes you crazy. I was a salafi and got completely burnt out. You keep hitting the wall if you take their interpretations of Allah’s asma wa sifaat.

    Actually if you really look at some salafi positions, minor tweaks to it becomes indistinguishable from Christian positions. I am talking about salafism of ibn taymiyyah and after him, not the salfism of salaf. also like all scholars ibn taymiyyah is to respected but he is not my prophet. so his words are not final for me. the same applies to any salafi sheikh of modern time be they albani or ibn baaz. Sorry if it hurts your feeling (to my salafi brothers) but islam is not bound by “salafiyyah”. So lets leave that debate for another time.

    Simply put in one hadeeth , our prophet SAW has commanded us to “not ponder over “dhaat” of allah but to ponder over “creations’ of allah”. So for me discussing about “dhaat” of allah beyond what is allowed is a bida’ah and it seems my salafi brothers enjoy indulging in. virtually all salafi discussion/books/website is filled with “aqeeda” business which has very little to do with why Allah SWT sent his messenger. For them it doesn’t seem quran and sunnah is enough and they have to go beyond them by their “logic” and “rationality” [e.g their istambaat] which apparently they claim to detest!

    Now to answer the question

    *Where is Allah (God)

    God is not like anything in his creation. meaning he doesn’t have any of the properties of anything in the creation. weight, dimension, location, temp, pressure, shape, space, form, time, etc, etc. these are characteristics of creation. so they can’t belong to God. (BTW if Allah uses in his language which apparently are words to describe properties of creation, then that meaning is to be rejected ( or say i don’t know) as Allah has no semblance of creation.

    God is not even like non tangible/non material things like mind or soul etc. Now how can I as human understand something which is nothing like anything in creation, has no characteristics of creation no semblance with creation. They way my brain has been made , it can’t comprehend anything beyond what is in universe. I can’t fathom let alone describe any thing outside of it.

    So to ask where is God (if its about his “essence” or dhaat) is a foolish question. However to ask where he is in terms of his power, mercy, forgiveness, knowledge, seeing, hearing, control is proper and that answer is, he is everywhere.

    As for Allah being above Arsh , if the translation of word “ala” is understood in terms of “beyond” not literally sitting “on” his throne, then that is fine. that is how i understand it. He is beyond his Arsh and he is beyond time and space.

    Hope this helps

    Like

  13. As for Allah being above Arsh , if the translation of word “ala” is understood in terms of “beyond” not literally sitting “on” his throne, then that is fine. that is how i understand it. He is beyond his Arsh and he is beyond time and space.
    Hope this helps

    Abu Talhah and Rational Muslim

    Thank you very much for your explanations and I pray to Allah to enlighten us more in His religion. You see, Christians are now trying to bring their confusion into our religion by

    -asking us questions that when not tackled well, will bring Islam straight into Christianity
    -using and picking verses in the Quran that no Muslim takes it as literal to claim, after all Islam no different from Christianity
    -they have many fake “Muslim” websites claiming to be Islamic and mostly well designed and when one reads carefully and know Islam, one could find distortions towards Christianity using Islamic verses.
    -and many more.

    Therefore it is the duty of all Muslims to be very careful when a Christian like defendchrist asks question. He could be there to study Islam or draw Islam into Christianity using questions and verses he sees as Christian in Islam.

    defecndchrist thanked Ibn Issam for his answer, so may be he just needs Islamic knowledge or he has an agenda to draw Islam into Christianity.

    Your explanations together with our “scenario” explanation should really help defendchrist and other Christians who would like to use our religious texts to draw us to Christianity. There was a Muslim visitor who has a blog and a good website who supported Dr. James White that because the Quran says “they are not dead but you do not perceived” means those who fought in the cause of Allah did not die.

    I challenged him and said they are dead and he said prophet Mohammed meeting of dead prophets means the prophets did not die and I said to him every Muslim believed the prophets died, they might be resurrected. Can Abu Talhah and Rational Muslim explain this topic for us? It is a related topic.

    I realised you people have some knowledge in Islam.

    Thanks

    Like

    • To be honest, I’m actually confused about where the confusion should lie; but in dealing with these particular types of Christians, relentless obfuscation is to be expected. I’m only a student, so I second the caveat issued by RationalMuslim. I do my best to present the position of the Māturīdī school.

      Anyway.

      Prophets and martyrs are obviously dead inasmuch as the worldly life is concerned. Nobody’s going to travel to an old battlefield and break the ground there to find the slain Muslims chatting and enjoying snacks. The life referred to is spiritual only. For every person, the spirit persists after the death of the body; obviously we believe in the questioning and punishment in the grave, and the dead being able to hear and so on are all attested to and affirmed as true. But this “barzakhī” life, as it’s known, is dim and restricted for most. For prophets, martyrs, and saints on the other hand, their barzakhī life is unrestricted and undiminished, notwithstanding the cessation of bodily functions.

      So yes they died, but the quality of their existence in the barzakh is such that they ought not be considered dead. No problem.

      Like

  14. I am no scholar so take my input here as a source of information to be researched further but NOT as any authentic fatwa. If I understand your questions correctly, then here are my responses. Two points are very clear and I don’t think any Christians who knows basics of Islam will disagree that these are normative understanding of all Muslims. These have been discussed on this blog before.

    • If it’s about Jesus AS, then yes he didn’t die, but he was lifted up alive and he will come back again and will die a natural death.

    • Prophet meeting other anbiya during miraj is true. But those prophets (except Jesus) died natural death and were resurrected to meet with our rasoolullah . Peace be up them all. Why is difficult to grasp. IS white saying that the living ( Jesus and Mohammed PBUH) couldn’t meet the dead? All power belongs to Allah and he can cause meeting of dead and alive at one place without any problem. After Lazarus who was dead was brought to live and let with living?

    Now the third question that seems to be “distorted by james white, if I take your understanding of his position as is. The verse in question is Al Baqarah

    And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” [2:154]

    The same theme is repeated in Aale-Imran

    And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision [3:169]

    This is a special kind of life. In Islam we don’t insert our own meaning to verse of Quran or Sunnah. One hadith clearly explains this verses

    It has been narrated on the authority of Masruq Who said:
    We asked ‘Abdullah about the Qur’anic verse:” Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord..” (iii. 169). He said: We asked the meaning of the verse (from the Holy Prophet) who said: The souls, of the martyrs live in the bodies of green birds who have their nests in chandeliers hung from the throne of the Almighty. They eat the fruits of Paradise from wherever they like and then nestle in these chandeliers. Once their Lord cast a glance at them and said: Do ye want anything? They said: What more shall we desire? We eat the fruit of Paradise from wherever we like. Their Lord asked them the same question thrice. When they saw that they will continue to be asked and not left (without answering the question). they said: O Lord, we wish that Thou mayest return our souls to our bodies so that we may be slain in Thy way once again. When He (Allah) saw that they had no need, they were left (to their joy in heaven).

    https://www.sunnah.com/muslim/33/181

    So clearly it is a special kind of life where they receive sustenance from Allah. Other dead don’t receive this privilege. So in that sense they are not dead. But from worldly perspective they are treated as dead that’s why their wealth is distributed according to rules of “wiratha”, their windows can marry after their iddah (mourning period) , their children (if they are small) fall in the category of “yatama” and they will be given the rights due on yatama in Islamic law etc.

    Like

    • And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah , “They are dead.” Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” [2:154]

      The same theme is repeated in Aale-Imran

      And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision [3:169]

      /////////////

      it is quite clear from the Quran that their connection is cut off

      It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): “Enter Paradise.” He said: “Would that my people knew!
      27. “That my Lord (Allah) has forgiven me, and made me of the honoured ones!”

      /////////////

      but some james white supporters from among the muslims say that their connection is not cut off and they are able to roam around the earth.

      Like

    • RationalMuslim

      Thank you very much. You and Abu Talhah are clear and concise on the issues of Christians inter mingling with our religion and theirs.

      Thanks for clarifying

      -The prophets that our prophet met were dead prophets. It is not difficult for God to resurrect them to meet our prophet. Every Muslim I know believe this except primaquran who has a website.

      -Those who fight in the cause of Allah you said this

      ——
      But from worldly perspective they are treated as dead that’s why their wealth is distributed according to rules of “wiratha”, their windows can marry after their iddah (mourning period) , their children (if they are small) fall in the category of “yatama” and they will be given the rights due on yatama in Islamic law etc.
      ——
      It means those who see them die means those fighting in the cause of Allah did die and Allah said every soul shall taste death.

      If Allah has resurrected them and seeing them alive means they did not die. They did die. I told a Muslim with a primaquran website the same.

      You see, Christians like James White, defendchrist are using these versus to confuse some unsuspecting Muslims to give in to their Christian doctrine and we must be very careful.

      Somebody is talking about Allah’s throne and the angels holding the throne will die, so Allah might not be sitting on it like a human king sitting on his throne.

      Everyone will die except Allah who does not die. The verses are simple to explain like you did my dear Rational Muslim.

      Thanks.

      Like

  15. @mr.heathcliff wrote: ” james white supporters from among the muslims”

    Astaghfirullah. May Allah guide these Muslims. How can a Muslims hold a belief contrary to Quran and Sunnah. and we are not talking about some body’s istambaat (“interpolation”) . These are crystal clear texts which don’t leave possibilities of such interpretations.

    BTW what benefit does James White to achieve by claiming this type of non nonsensical beliefs. how does it benefit his cause ?

    Like

    • That Muslim’s website is primaquran. He clearly told us here that Dr. James White believe the fighters in the cause of Allah did not die and we are saying they died. Allah has resurrected them and sees them alive but we do not see them alive. The bottom line is that they died. primaquran is saying no they did not die at all as the quran said.

      Dr. James White will benefit a lot from this if a Muslim believe death does not mean cease to exist or death means one can do whatever he wants to do after death so Jesus dying will mean Jesus can do whatever he wants to do after death.

      It means a lot to Christians because they will say even Muslims believe one dies he is alive. Muslims believe when one dies he is not alive until resurrected. But Dr. James White and Christian believe Jesus died and because death means you can do whatever you want, Jesus resurrected himself.

      If they are able to change Muslim thinking like this, they think that Muslim is in a better way to be converted to Christianity. There are many websites designed and feel like Muslim website but further reading will prove so many distortions of Islam to be inline to Christian theology. This tricks together with the questions defendchrist is asking is dangerous and we must fight it and explain this clear wherever we see it.

      I went to the primaquran Muslim website to make my corrections clear that every soul will die and cease to exist except Allah.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • Ok. I will try to review what they have to say. I am aware that there those among ahlul bida’ah like, quburiyeen, barelvis, shias /others hold such beliefs. they do that by doing “ghulu” in the meaning and tafseer of these verses.

      Suppose a persons believe in this wrong interpretation, this still doesn’t help James White cause. We beleive there is life in “barzakh” and shuhada, ambiya and righteous are given life in that state. but that life is not this earthly life. Barzakh is after “death” . There are plenty of verses in quran about everything dying.

      Our problem with James is not JUST that Jesus died on cross and yet was living, our position is clear that Jesus didn’t die at all. So he is not in Barzakh, rather he is a different state continuum of earthly life.

      Moreover and even more importantly Jesus hasn’t taught at all that his death or anyone else’ death has anything to do with salvation. Lately I have been reading Gospels and in my summary there are at least 200 sayings of Jesus on salvation and guess what they teach? All of them teach salvation through good belief and good deed. To my surprise there is not one clear text where Jesus teaches salvation through belief in his death and resurrection. I am planning to compile them into a long article time permitting.

      So while we can’t control Muslims being misled, we can provide them ample evidence that entire super structure xtianity is based on rebellion from Jesus and his teaching that is still preserved in pages of gospels.

      Like

  16. After reading Sam Shamoun’s disgusting and totally unreasonable argument here one gets more understanding for acts like that in Cairo last Sunday. Christians are pure evil.

    Like

  17. Hi Intellect
    Please quote scripture where it says everyone will die?

    And by the way why?

    Like

    • if you don’t die where you ever created or were you eternal like the members of trinity?

      Like

    • Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 35:
      كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ وَنَبْلُوكُم بِالشَّرِّ وَالْخَيْرِ فِتْنَةً وَإِلَيْنَا تُرْجَعُونَ

      Every human being is bound to taste death; and We test you [all] through the bad and the good [things of life] by way of trial: and unto Us you all must return.

      Like

    • the word used in the verse quoted by abu talha is “nafs”. a more accurate translation of it would be “living being” although , human being is not a wrong translation.

      Every living being is bound to taste death; and We test you [all] through the bad and the good [things of life] by way of trial: and unto Us you all must return.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you. I had the Asad translation up on my iQuran app that I copied the verse from. Didn’t really look at it.

      I don’t agree with the “human being” translation either; I’d also use “living thing” or “self/individual.”

      Like

    • how about

      “every self is tasting death….”

      Like

    • The angels carrying the throne of Allah will die. So it means he might not be sitting on HIs throne like Kings and Queens sitting on their thrones on this earth resting. Allahu Akbar.

      My dear Christians everything including Jesus Christ will cease to exist except Allah alone and only He. The Bible said nothing else.

      Nothing else means including Jesus who said the only true God is not him(Jesus).

      Thanks.

      Like

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