Paul Williams makes Dale Tuggy think about the New Testament?

It is great Dr Dale Tuggy knows the Trinity doctrine was not taught by Jesus (i.e. it is a false doctrine). But he needs to look into New Testament reliability with a critical mind too.

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Categories: Islam

35 replies

  1. Hi
    Then how does Jesus and the make their abode with the believer?

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    by the spirit?

    Maybe you can explain to what the verse means.

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    • Ask two Christians, get 3 opinions.

      Liked by 4 people

    • Make our abode?
      Would that not be reference to Paradise; the one who obeys Jesus’ commands, from the Father, will have eternal life in Paradise with God and His prophet.

      Muslims have a similar belief concerning the commands of Prophet Muhammad. If we obey we have eternal paradise with God and His prophet.

      It would come as no surprise to learn that all Prophets taught this to their respective communities.

      Liked by 2 people

  2. Hi
    Its not talking about paradise as Jesus says “we will come unto HIM,and make our abode with HIM”
    This obviously talking about living in the person unless of course you know different.

    And Burhanuddin1 I am speaking from a bible text in the same way I could talk to three Muslims and get different answers for one question you are making no point.

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    • “living in the person”

      creative

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    • I did ask for a better answer for the text.

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    • How many persons live in your person?

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    • he has 3 persons + his person living in him.
      so 4 + 2 (nature being a conscious thing)= 6

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hi
      here he comes again Heathcliff you think you sound clever why dont you just discuss what the scripture says instead of making silly comments.

      4 plus 2? what are you talking about?

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    • DC
      “just discuss what the scripture says”

      Lol. Throwing “the trinity is revealed in the NT” und the bus!

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    • “4 plus 2? what are you talking about?”

      “i am yhwh there is ….”

      the what you worship here , speaks as a who.

      who is speaking?

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    • DC is probably 5 Who’s in one What. Probably not a matter of theology, but psychiatry?

      Liked by 3 people

    • this is why blog has gone down people claiming to serve Allah and have the upmost respect for spiritual things come on and talk nonsense.

      Making fun out of me doesnt help your cause and its probably your religious pride that causes you to function the way you do.

      You may mock the trinity or Christians who believe it to be true.

      The bigger joke is on you guys.

      Your own scholar Ibn Kathir commentating on Sura 4:171 he said that the belief of the three was The Father Mary and Jesus.

      The koran didnt know what the Christians really believed in regards to the Trinity.

      You cannot use the argument that the koran meant “three anything” because your own scholar gave the understanding that it meant Father Son and Mary

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  3. “… what the Christians really believed in regards to the Trinity”

    At least you know, right? Doesnt seem like it as you have to ask me what your personal eisegesis means. Lol.

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  4. The koran didnt know what the Christians really believed in regards to the Trinity.

    You cannot use the argument that the koran meant “three anything” because your own scholar gave the understanding that it meant Father Son and Mary”

    where does the quran say that the 3 are 1 ?

    did mark know what jews did?

    a historian and scholar called bart ehrman says no

    quote :

    Greek is his first language; and he doesn’t seem to know the customs or geography of Palestine. (Customs, e.g., Mark 6, his claim that “all Jews” wash their hands before eating. Not even close to true. If he had grown up among Jews he would have known that.)

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    • hey
      if you want to listen to Bart Erhman then get on with it. This is the same that says he left Christianity because of some contradiction in Mark.

      Mark 2:26 well as far as I’m concerned that is a prolepsis.

      Abiathar was not a high priest at the time of the event Jesus was speaking about, but speaks of him to the present crowd as they would have known him.

      In regards to Mark 7 and the washing of hands, Jesus mentions Isaiah and “this people” he is obviously talking about Jews being taught the commandments of men.

      So as well as the Pharisees there were Jews that followed them etc.

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    • “as far as I’m concerned that is a prolepsis.”

      creative

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    • “In regards to Mark 7 and the washing of hands, Jesus mentions Isaiah and “this people” he is obviously talking about Jews being taught the commandments of men.”

      quote :
      they noticed that some of his disciples were eating with defiled hands, that is, without washing them. 3 (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands,[a] thus observing the tradition of the elders; 4 and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it;[b] and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.[c])

      quoting ehrman again :

      Customs, e.g., Mark 6, his claim that “all Jews” wash their hands before eating. Not even close to true. If he had grown up among Jews he would have known that.

      /////////////////

      what exactly were you addressing ? DID ALL THE JEWS WASH THEIR HANDS BEFORE THEY EAT?

      here is word for word translation :

      kai idontes tinas tôn mathêtôn autou hoti koinais chersin tout estin aniptois esthiousin tous artous

      Which translate literally as:

      and / they were seeing / some / of his disciples / that / with defiled hands / that is, unwashed [hands] / they ate / their bread.

      The key word “unwashed” is aniptos (likewise again in Mark 7:5). It means what it says: unwashed.

      The phrase “in the way” is nowhere in the text. Even the next verse reads only:

      For / the Pharisees / and / all the Jews / if they do not wash / their hands / by fist / they do not eat / holding fast / the tradition / of the elders / and / when [they come] / from the marketplace / if they do not / cleanse themselves / they do not eat / and / many / other things / there are / which they have received / to hold fast to: / washing / of cups / and / pots / and bronze vessels.

      ////

      did the jews WASH their hands BEFORE they eat?

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  5. So there can be none greater than a unitarian Deity which after having created the material world could not then generate a human flesh into a community by seemingly motherly procreative means and assign to that flesh an integral element of its Oneness? But since it can be so logically and easily be believed to actually exist, it follows that Islamic Deity,et al, is logically excluded from eternall existence and so is the conceivance(sic) of a serving myth.

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    • Wow. Is it thinking?

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    • did the jews WASH their hands BEFORE they eat?

      Yeah the ones that obeyed the Pharisees!

      its a bit like “The Jews say the Esau is the son of Allah”
      by the token would that be all the Jews that believed that.

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    • It is not that the Unitarian Deity “could not” but rather that it “did not.” We know this because Allah tells us that he is one without associates or partners in the oneness of his deity, “Allahu Wahdu la shareeka lak” The Qur’an repeatedly hammers this message home, and agrees with the Shema Yisroel, “Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.” This is logically and easily be believed to actually exist, while the Trinitarian Godhead is highly illogical and hard to believe, especially when one tries to argue that the Trinitarian God is One (and not actually three).

      If God assigns or shares an “integral element of its Oneness” to someone else, another person, he is no longer absolutely Singular in his Oneness.

      Therefore, it is the concept of a Trinitarian deity et al, is logically excluded from eternal existence.

      Liked by 1 person

    • you wrote :
      Yeah the ones that obeyed the Pharisees!

      mark writing outside of israel is ATTRIBUTING the practice to ALL jews. he thinks that THE JEWS think that the TRADITIONS of men are actually DIVINE .

      quote :
      For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands,[a] thus observing the tradition of the elders; 4 and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it;[b] and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.

      quote :
      8 You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.”

      quote :
      ‘This people honors me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me;
      7 in vain do they worship me,
      teaching human precepts as doctrines.’

      quote :

      (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands,[a] thus observing the tradition of the elders; 4 and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it;[b] and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.[c])

      if one carefully reads this , one would assume that a non-jewish person is thinking that the jews are practicing such washing rituals .

      that does not read like “the ones who OBEYED THE pharisees”
      that reads like a guy who had no clues about jewish customs.

      here are two interesting responses :

      He probably misunderstood it. It’s true that priests had to wash their hands (Exodus 30:18-21; 40:30-32, Leviticus 22:1-16), but not all Jews.

      The Pharisees did have a tradition of hand washing before eating, but they were a minority group in Palestine. They were, however, politically and socially powerful (see, e.g., Antiquities 18.15), so it would not be surprising that foreigners might end up attributing their customs as what “all Jews” do.

      ////

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    • “This is logically and easily be believed to actually exist, while the Trinitarian Godhead is highly illogical and hard to believe, especially when one tries to argue that the Trinitarian God is One (and not actually three).

      If God assigns or shares an “integral element of its Oneness” to someone else, another person, he is no longer absolutely Singular in his Oneness.”

      they worship SINGULAR echads which are PACKED in “one echad”

      internal Plurality of echads

      they actually see god as a company

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    • “The Jews say the Esau is the son of Allah”

      mark thinks that the rituals attributed to the jews are divine. the quran didn’t say ALL jews, mark said that. the quran says that the jews say…. it did not say that their religion says .
      mark is thinking that judaism in jesus’ day has obsession with washing rituals, my question is . where is the proof ?

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    • Hi
      can you quote anything historical or from the Jews that tell us the Jews believed “Essu is the son of Allah”

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  6. DC said:

    “can you quote anything historical or from the Jews that tell us the Jews believed “Essu is the son of Allah””

    Who is “Essu”? I assume you mean Uzair (Ezra).

    All early Islamic sources state that there were some Jews in Medina in the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who believed that Uzair was the son of Allah.

    Now, if this was not true, then what reason would there have been for the Quran to make that accusation? Let’s assume for argument’s sake that Muhammad (pbuh) was the author of the Quran. Why would he have willingly made a false accusation against the Medinan Jews if he knew it was not true? All it would take to refute the claim would be for the Jews to deny it publicly. Yet, there is no evidence that this happened.

    In any case, the Bible refers to some people as “sons/children of God” (bene el-hayy). So,why is it so hard to believe that some heretical Jews in Medina believed that Uzair was literally the son of Allah?

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    • You need give some evidence what do your scholars say Ibn Kathir and others?

      what does the Hadith say.

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    • LOL, okay DC. I will give you some evidence.

      The Tafsir of Ibn Abbas states:

      “(And the Jews) the Jews of Medina (say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians) the Christians of Najran (say: The Messiah is the son of Allah.” (http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=9&tAyahNo=30&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2)

      Notice it says “the Jews of Medina”.

      According to the tafsirs of Razi and Tabari, a particular Jew from Medina is even named for having this belief. His name was Finhas Ibn Azura (see “The Study Quran”, p. 516).

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    • (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands,[a] thus observing the tradition of the elders; 4 and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it;[b] and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.[c])

      1.washing BEFORE eating
      2.washing food from market
      3. washing of dishes

      dc, notice what the specifics mark attributes to “all the jews” ?

      now don’t tell me that the jews WASHED for REASON x.

      show me some evidence that the jews DID the LIST mentioned above.

      i don’t want to see that the jews washed his hand BEFORE touching dead body or torah

      i want to see evidence for the list mentioned above.

      you specifically want proof for ezra, i specifically want proof for the list above

      so far, here are scholarly views

      quote :

      No. Only priests were required. Some other Jews may have done so as a personal or sectarian practice (e.g. Essenes or possibly some Pharisees), but it was certainly not “all the Jews” either by law or by custom.

      quote :

      Greek is his first language; and he doesn’t seem to know the customs or geography of Palestine. (Customs, e.g., Mark 6, his claim that “all Jews” wash their hands before eating. Not even close to true. If he had grown up among Jews he would have known that.)

      so SPECIFIC EVIDENCE FOR THE LIST ABOVE

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    • hello dc, are you busy in sunday school today?

      Bart June 11, 2017 I hope Tim McGraw doesn’t think that every Jew washed his hands in the sea before they ate. What of those who didn’t live near the sea? (!)
      I’m talking specifically about Mark’s claim that “the Jews” always “washed their hands” before they ate a meal. Your other references have to do with ritual cleansing pools (miqvoth) in which Jews would occasionally immerse themselves as a ritual act. That happened throughout Palestine (if you visit, you can see lots of ancient examples dug up by archaeologists). But it’s not the same as washing hands before meals (something some Pharisees did).

      Like

    • actually working get back to you later

      Like

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