Was John the Son of Zebedee Capable of Writing a Gospel? (No!)

QUESTION:

You mention in your book Forgeries and Counter Forgeries that John most likely did not write the Gospel attributed to him as he almost certainly could not write in Greek. I seem to remember you writing that the Greek of that Gospel was good and fairly nuanced. However, I am being told by someone who is fairly conversant in these matters that John could easily have learned the Greek necessary to write the Gospel, since he lived for over 60 years on the mission field and that his Greek is the most basic of the NT. Is he right? And if so how would you respond?

 

RESPONSE

Yes, I get asked this question a lot, or rather, get told this a lot – that if an illiterate Aramaic speaking day-laborer spent a lot of time abroad, he would be able to write a Gospel in a foreign language (it  has been established on clear philological grounds that John’s Gospel, like the other books of the New Testament, is an original Greek composition, not a translation from Aramaic).    It’s clear that my thinking about this is not at *all* what (some? many?) other people think.  The problem, it seems, is that people have a massive misunderstanding about education levels in the ancient world, and of what people were capable of doing when it came to reading and writing.

To begin with, the New Testament itself indicates that the apostle John was a fisherman by trade.   How well educated were fishermen in rural Galilee?  We actually have a reliable answer to that.  They were not educated at *all*.   The vast majority of people in Galilee had zero education.  There were not day schools; the only people who got education were urban elites – the wealthy upper crust who lived in major urban areas.

John lived in a tiny rural community where there almost certainly was no school (see my bibliographical references at the end of this post).  And as a day laborer from a family of day laborers, he was in the lower classes.  He would never have learned his letters, let alone how to read a book, let alone how to copy a book, let alone how to compose a sentence in writing, let alone to compose a book.  And that is in his *own* language, which was Aramaic.  That is why the New Testament itself indicates that he was “agrammatos,” i.e., someone who didn’t know his letters, that is, someone who could not read (let alone write; let alone compose a book) (thus Acts 4:13).

Why would any experience he had on the missionary field with people who spoke a different language (Greek) suddenly make him educated, able to read any language, or the language of people he was suddenly living among, or able to compose a sentence in writing in that language, or able to write an entire book in perfectly constructed, even literarily pleasing in places, Greek?  I think the problem is that we simply assume that rural day-laborers in ancient Galilee were kind of like our next door neighbors in 21stcentury America: highly educated people with college degrees who know how to write and who, if they spent say twenty years in a foreign country, would be able to write in that other language.  But that’s not how it was at all.

For one thing, there is nothing in the New Testament to suggest that John spent any time at all outside of Palestine.  Whenever he is mentioned, he is either in Aramaic-speaking Galilee or Jerusalem.  But even more important, just because someone spends time in countries speaking a foreign language that doesn’t make them qualified to write a *book* in that language.

Here is more what it is like.  I have a wonderful house cleaner from Guatemala who has been in the U.S. for about fifteen years.  Her English is barely functional, even though she has TV, radio, a computer, access to social media and American movies, and is constantly among English speaking people doing her job.  Would she be capable of writing a Gospel about Jesus in English?   Good grief –NO!  She would not be able to construct more than a very brief and improperly worded sentence or two.  And she is far more educated (in her home country) than John was (in his).

Living abroad does not allow a person to become an author.  First there has to be a preliminary education, which, in the ancient world, happened only among children of very rich people, and took years.  After those years the student needed to learn how to compose writings.  That took more years.  It was a very long drawn out process.  It was only for the rich kids because everyone else had to start working for a living at a very young age.

Could an adult who was uneducated in this way eventually learn to write?  Possibly, but we have precisely zero evidence of anything like adult education in the ancient world.  And no evidence either, at all, of people being trained in a school setting to write in a second language.

I’m afraid too many people have a completely romantic idea about what education was like in the ancient world, because they think that it must have been roughly analogous to education in the modern world.   And partly because they’ve heard so many fictions about education in Palestine, where allegedly every boy went to a synagogue school to learn to read and write Hebrew.  But that’s simply not true.

I discuss all of this in my book Forgery and Counterforgery.  But no one has to take my word for it.  Go to the real experts. It is much better to see what such established scholars who have devoted huge chunks of their research lives to such matters have to say than simply to make some guesses based on some rather romantic hunches about what life might have been like all those years ago.

If you want to learn about literacy in antiquity, the best place to start is Columbia professor William Harris’s book Ancient Literacy.  If you want to know about how literacy worked in ancient Palestine, go to Catherine Hezser’s amazing study, Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine (she argues that the rates of literacy at the time in Palestine were probably not a lot more than 3%; that is, only 3% or slightly more of the population could read.  And that this 3-4% were wealthy urban elites – not rural fishermen).  If you want to see how education worked – how children learned to read and write – then read the books on ancient educational systems by Raffaela Cribiore, for example her enlightening Gymnastics of the Mind.

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Categories: Bible, Biblical scholarship

66 replies

  1. What an interesting article for a Muslim to post.

    Paul are you agreeing with Bart that since John was “illiterate” that it is impossible for him to write a book as beautiful as The Gospel According to John? Isn’t that what you say about Muhammad? Greek was the common language of the area along with Aramaic. If John is involved in business it would be odd for him not to speak the local commercial language. Where is the evidence John did not speak the local language? The OT was translated into Greek for this exact reason.

    > The vast majority of people in Galilee had zero education.

    This is false. The synagogue was the main form of education and there is plenty of evidence for synagogues in Galilee.

    Ehrman’s arguments are so hypothetical.

    Like

    • 1. We don’t claim that Muhammad ﷺ wrote the Qur’ān (which was still in his own language, mind you). So that’s completely irrelevant, just like the rest of the vast majority of times you lot try deflecting back to Islām.

      2. Speaking a language and producing written compositions in it are two wildly different things, and Ehrman didn’t address whether or not “John” picked up some Greek over the course of his life. That’s a bit of a strawman.

      3. Was Greek on the syllabus at “John’s” local synagogue growing up? 😂

      Liked by 9 people

    • “If John is involved in business it would be odd for him not to speak the local commercial language. Where is the evidence John did not speak the local language? The OT was translated into Greek for this exact reason.”

      what is this ?

      john produced the gospel of john in greek because he was involved in business?
      what business?

      what level of greek was involved for this business?

      Liked by 1 person

    • I know enough Turkish to buy and sell in a bazaar, but I’m not about to write a biography of my Shaykh in Turkish… dunno what this guy’s on about…

      Liked by 1 person

    • Green is a fundamentalist missionary. It’s just the predictable clutching at straws.

      Liked by 2 people

    • abu

      “We don’t claim that Muhammad ﷺ wrote the Qur’ān”

      The problem is that mohammed couldn’t read, so he had no way of knowing that what was written down is what he actually wanted written down. This makes the identity of the quran’s authors all the more significant since their trustworthiness would have been essential – were they slaves like mary the copt who was repeatedly raped by mohammed? Were the quran’s authors slaves like the jewish woman who poisoned the prophet?

      Like

    • Joel,

      What are you, some kind of grand conspiracy theorist? Stop being absurd.

      Troll.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Joel is probably pissed as the rapture didn’t happen. Again. Don’t worry, i’d also prefer you were gone dude.

      Liked by 4 people

    • “Joel is probably pissed as the rapture didn’t happen. Again. Don’t worry, i’d also prefer you were gone dude.”

      “12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.”

      pauls lies and lawlessness.

      Like

    • abu

      No I’m not a conspiracy theorist. But that doesn’t do away with the problem of who wrote the quran. Its author’s are anonymous, and could have had any agenda. And mohammed couldn’t read so he had no way of ensuring that what they wrote was what he wanted them to write.

      Like

    • Re-read your own post and you might notice a clear implication of grand conspiracy (that is if you have even elementary knowledge of Qur’ān… which you’ve made it clear you don’t so I don’t know why I’m wasting my time 😂).

      Liked by 1 person

    • Joel,
      I think you’re just embarrassing yourself.

      Like

    • abu

      The point flew over your head.

      No one knows who wrote your holey book. It could well have been a slave that wanted to embarrass your prophet. I don’t know, neither do you, and mohammed would have had no idea what was being written anyways since he was allegedly illiterate.

      No conspiracy theory here, just cold hard facts.

      Like

    • Joel
      Ever heard of Abu Bakr and Uthman?
      We know exactly who these people are. We have the evidence.
      Do you know who the authors of your 4 ‘gospels’ are?
      No.
      Now that your ass has been handed to you on a silver plate, you come to this thread and start spreading bs here. Get lost troll.

      Like

    • O and how is the oneness of the Father OR the Son OR the HS different from ours?

      Liked by 1 person

    • We trace back every single word of the Quran back to Muhammad via multiple lines. Every single word of it. There is not a SINGLE word that cannot be traced back to Muhammad.
      Now can you open your bible and find ONE word of Jesus that can actually be traced back to Jesus?
      No!
      Sad panda.

      Like

    • A total of 33,000 companions agreed that every letter of the Quran was in the right place. Then this mushaf was sent to Umar ibn al-Khattab. After his death, this book passed on to Hazrat Hafsah, the daughter of Umar and a wife of Prophet Muhammad.

      So you are saying that 33000 people all conspired.
      And Umar the second CALIPH (and one of his closest companion) also conspired and so did the Prophet’s wife Hazrat apparently and afterwards so did Uthman and his entire comity…

      Nothing stupid about joel’s comment at all. Nothing to see here folks, just move along.

      Like

    • belieber

      “Ever heard of Abu Bakr and Uthman?”

      They personally wrote the quran? That’s news to me. Did they sign the earliest copies?

      Like

    • So you are saying that 33000 people all conspired.
      And Umar the second CALIPH (and one of his closest companion) also conspired and so did the Prophet’s wife Hazrat apparently and afterwards so did Uthman and his entire comity

      Ignore this as much as you like.
      Your bible is a mess. Approved by people who never even met Jesus.

      Like

    • Uthman ordered 4 copies to be sent to 4 cities. So yes he ‘signed’ it.

      Like

    • The project was organized and supervised by one of the Prophet Muhammad’s key scribes, Zayd bin Thabit.
      Zayd bin Thabit verified each verse with his own memory.
      Umar ibn Al-Khattab verified each verse. Both men had memorized the entire Quran.
      Two reliable witnesses had to testify that the verses were written in the presence of the Prophet Muhammad.
      The verified written verses were collated with those from the collections of other Companions.

      Like

    • This complete text of the Quran was kept in the possession of Abu Bakr, and then passed on to the next Caliph, Umar ibn Al-Khattab. After his death, they were given to his daughter Hafsah (who was also a widow of the Prophet Muhammad).

      Like

    • belieber

      “Uthman ordered 4 copies to be sent to 4 cities. So yes he ‘signed’ it.”

      In other words, he didn’t “sign” any of them at all.

      Like

    • In other word you’re a retard and you are being desperate again so you try and find something to hang on to and to bullshit your way out of it.
      You said:
      “Its author’s are anonymous, and could have had any agenda” I gave you Zayd bin Thabit. One of Muhammad’s scribes.
      You’re full of shit joel. If you’re going to pretend that that’s not good enough along with 33000 Muslims approving that Quran including Umar, Abu Bakr and Uthman his closest companions.
      That’s like saying Peter, James and Matthew approved the NT but that does’t mean shit. Bu they didn’t approve. Sad panda.

      Even your comicbook has 2 Peter saying that the author is Peter who is lying his ass off. So your signed book 2 Peter is a forgery. So much for your ‘sign’ argument.

      Like

  2. Devastating reply from Abu Talhah!

    Liked by 3 people

  3. Joel,

    I rest my case about your ignorance. If someone else sees fit, they can clue you in.

    Liked by 1 person

    • He is just playing games. He knows the holey bible’s preservation is a joke so he wants to desperately create doubt on the other side so his side wouldn’t look so pathetic.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Seems more like he genuinely has no bloody idea what he’s talking about 😂

      Liked by 1 person

    • That too! He says that we don’t know who wrote the Quran down. WTF???
      Zayd bin Thabit helloooooooooooooo. What an idiot.

      Like

    • Who wrote it down isn’t as important as its mutawātir oral transmission (it was not, first and foremost, a literary work in document form). And the fact that the “author” is God Almighty Himself (I cringe using that word but it gets the point across most succinctly).

      Liked by 2 people

    • abu

      What case? I didn’t see you making a case.

      “Who wrote it down isn’t as important as its mutawātir oral transmission (it was not, first and foremost, a literary work in document form). And the fact that the “author” is God Almighty Himself (I cringe using that word but it gets the point across most succinctly).”

      The quran is too full of christian apocrypha, talmudic speculation, and pagan fables to be seriously considered from god himself.

      This is why the actual authors of the quran are significant – there are significant passages in the quran that are simply embarrassing for mohammed that one can only wonder if it was written down by hostile scribes.

      This is not so far-fetched – illiteracy was widespread at the time, and it is plausible that those who could write were christians, jews, and zoroastrians who had been captured and enslaved by mohammed and his followers.

      For example, the passage where the meccans mock mohammed for preaching known fables, and the convenient “revelations” that permitted him to have many wives or have sex with his slave in his other wife’s bed. These are embarrassing, since it is obvious to objective readers that these passages cast doubt on your prophet’s genuineness.

      The question of the quran’s authors’ therefore, becomes intriguing.

      As for oral transmission, Ehrman’s work cast heavy doubts on its efficacy as a means to convey accurate and authentic history.

      Like

    • Again the implication of grand conspiracy; if you acknowledge that Muhammad ﷺ existed, then it must be so. It’s a genuine mystery how you’re not seeing that…

      Like

    • “As for oral transmission, Ehrman’s work cast heavy doubts on its efficacy as a means to convey accurate and authentic history.”

      and where does ehrman address a POLICED oral transmission?
      since the claim is that the qurans transmission was POLICED.

      Like

    • Lol Joel has a wonderful imagination and zero knowledge of Islāmic history. Poor baby…

      Like

    • heathcliff

      There are troubling traditions that indicate that huge swathes of quranic material was lost, left out, mis-spoken, or just plain made up.

      To make the claim that god “authored” the quran, but then discover that its transmission is suspect – based on the witness of mohammed’s followers – cast huge question marks over divine origin.

      There is nothing spectacular about the quran to make me believe that there is any divine origin.

      Like

    • “There are troubling traditions that indicate that huge swathes of quranic material was lost, left out, mis-spoken, or just plain made up.”

      pig,

      your lies were addressed pig

      Like

  4. Foolish little Joel got completely owned by the brothers yet again!

    There is simply no comparison between the history of the Bible and the history of the Quran. The former has clearly been corrupted as any reasonable person knows. But the latter’s amazing preservation can be verified by historical evidence. I discussed this topic in a brief article a few years ago:

    https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/09/the-history-of-the-bible-and-the-quran/

    Liked by 2 people

    • Slapping him around is my new favorite hobby.

      Like

    • qb

      Yes there is. Both are historical documents that were written down by human beings. Preservation claims have been shown to be highly doubtful, and are insignificant in theological terms when we consider that the quran is corrupted from its inception.

      Like

    • Foolish little Joel pretends to be knowledgeable, but we know the extent of his knowledge.

      “Highly doubtful”, you say? How so?

      “Corrupted from its inception”, you say? How so?

      Let’s see how the idiot responds.

      Liked by 2 people

    • He’s completely irrational; he, like all his ilk, thinks ahad can somehow scratch mutawatir. He can keep dreaming, I guess. Just wasting his time here though.

      Like

    • He’s gonna come up with a self invented criteria that gets laughed at up by every biblical scholar.
      O and how is the oneness of the Father OR the Son OR the HS different from ours?

      Liked by 1 person

    • qb

      Highly doubtful in the sense that there are scribal errors, some manuscripts have verses switched, and huge swathes of the quran are missing from some of the earliest qurans.

      The quran includes known christian apocrypha, talmudic speculations, and pagan fables. Therefore, if there ever was a “revelation” – which is doubtful – it was corrupted from inception by known man made christian forgeries, fairy tales and religious commentaries by anonymous rabbis.

      Like

    • LOL, such a predictable reply by foolish little Coco!

      “Highly doubtful in the sense that there are scribal errors, some manuscripts have verses switched, and huge swathes of the quran are missing from some of the earliest qurans.”

      Vague statements from Coco…

      Scribal errors can happen because scribes are humans. Even the best scribe can have a slip of the pen.

      Verses switched? How does that change the meaning of the Quran? It was possible for people to mistakenly put verses out of place. When the Quran was being revealed, people wrote the verses down on whatever they could. Sometimes, they were not present when a particular verse was revealed and did not know where it was to be placed in the Quran. Try again, Coco.

      “Huge swaths” you say? Which ones? Care to provide any examples from specific manuscripts?

      “The quran includes known christian apocrypha, talmudic speculations, and pagan fables. Therefore, if there ever was a “revelation” – which is doubtful – it was corrupted from inception by known man made christian forgeries, fairy tales and religious commentaries by anonymous rabbis.”

      LOL, Christian logic strikes again!

      Non-sequiturs don’t strengthen your point idiot. Just because you regard certain stories to be “fables” does not make them so.

      And as usual, you shoot yourself in the foot since it is your Bible which also includes apocryphal stories. The best example is the book of Jude, which copied a passage from the apocryphal and non-canonical book of Enoch.

      Your Bible also refers to unknown and now lost sources. For example, it mentions such sources as the “Book of the Wars of the Lord” and the “Book of Jasher”. Were these sources “canonical” scripture? Where are they now?

      Now go eat some bananas. You need some vitamins.

      Like

    • qb

      “Non-sequiturs don’t strengthen your point idiot. Just because you regard certain stories to be “fables” does not make them so.”

      Idiot!

      Scholarship regards certain stories to be fables, and plagiarisms of christian apocrypha and talmudic speculations. The quran, therefore is corrupted since its inception.

      Scribal errors pour holy cold water on the nonsensical delusion that the quran is “perfectly” preserved – rearranging entire verses hardly counts as perfect preservation. Which is the correct order of verses?

      This is where the anonymity of the quran’s authors’ becomes significant – who were these unknown men (or women) who so drastcially changed the quranic verses and decided to number them? And which copies are the ones which contain the verse order that allah wants, and how do yoou know that the present verse order is what allah wants?

      “And as usual, you shoot yourself in the foot since it is your Bible which also includes apocryphal stories. The best example is the book of Jude, which copied a passage from the apocryphal and non-canonical book of Enoch.”

      Stupid, we don’t claim that the bible is anything other than divinely inspired – not the eternal word of allah (which I’m not sure how that works when allah changes his mind and abrogates, LOL!!).

      It is the teaching of the bible that is divine and inerrant, thus, non-canonical sources can be incorporated into the teaching.

      The quran is supposed to be this amazing “revelation” that surpasses human genius, is beyond criticism, and stems from the mind of a “god”, allah itself. Yet, it uses known human fables and apocrypha and speculation from humans from other religions. Excuse me while I laugh…..LOL!!!

      “When the Quran was being revealed, people wrote the verses down on whatever they could.”

      LOL!! But these were destroyed, so all we have are muslim stories to account for their existence. Why were they destroyed? Likely there were insurmountable differences between “revelations”.

      ““Huge swaths” you say? Which ones? Care to provide any examples from specific manuscripts?”

      We both know which ones, are you really going to do this dance?

      Like

  5. Coco the Simian said:

    “Idiot!

    Scholarship regards certain stories to be fables, and plagiarisms of christian apocrypha and talmudic speculations. The quran, therefore is corrupted since its inception.”

    LOL!! I love it when Christians appeal to “scholarship” when it suits their purpose but when it comes to their Bible, they cast it aside since real scholarship makes the Bible look very bad and unimpressive.

    Just because some scholars “regard” some stories to be “fables” etc., does not make them so. They are basing their views on historical assumptions. Secular historians will not accept stories as history without following the historical method, which requires stringent verification that an event actually occurred. When there is no verify a story, they assume it must be a “fable”. But that of course does not guarantee that it is. It just means that the story cannot be historically verified.

    Interestingly, you once again (and not surprisingly) shoot yourself in the foot yet again! Poor, poor Coco. As it turns out, scholars have looked at the Bible and found evidence of actual fables and plagiarisms of apocrypha. I already gave the example of Enoch. But scholars also regard Matthew’s gospel in particular as having fables. Events like Herod’s killing of all male children in Bethlehem or the dead rising from their graves after the crucifixion as completely made-up events. There is no doubt that these stories are fables because we have many historical sources from that time that do not mention these events. Therefore, there are good reasons to reject these stories as made-up events.

    “Scribal errors pour holy cold water on the nonsensical delusion that the quran is “perfectly” preserved – rearranging entire verses hardly counts as perfect preservation. Which is the correct order of verses?”

    LOL, what a moron! Muslims don’t rely only on manuscripts to show that the Quran is perfectly preserved. The Quran has been memorized by millions of people from its inception. That was the check to protect against scribal errors. Your pathetic Bible, though, had no such check. In fact, the very presence of scribal errors debunks your nonsensical delusion of “inspiration”.

    I already explained the rearranging of the verses. It doesn’t change the meaning of the Quran, so it’s a minor issue anyway. In contrast, your pathetic Bible has the much more serious issue of rearranging the entire canon. There were debates raging for hundreds of years among Jews and Christians as to which books were to be considered “canonical”.

    “This is where the anonymity of the quran’s authors’ becomes significant – who were these unknown men (or women) who so drastcially changed the quranic verses and decided to number them? And which copies are the ones which contain the verse order that allah wants, and how do yoou know that the present verse order is what allah wants?”

    LOL!! Yet another non-sequitur! First of all, you assume there were “unknown men” who “drastically changed the Quranic verses”, but this is just sophistry. We know the identifies of the earliest scribes. And there was no “drastic” changes, you idiot. Just because a few verses were out of order does not count as “drastic changes”. As I said, the meaning does not change just because some verses are out of order.

    I am cracking up reading your fallacious arguments and wonder what would happen if you applied this same asinine logic to your pathetic Bible? It seems Christians become extreme skeptics when it comes to the Quran’s preservation but when it comes to the Bible, they blindly accept any idiotic theory proposed by other idiotic apologists! Pathetic!!

    “Stupid, we don’t claim that the bible is anything other than divinely inspired – not the eternal word of allah (which I’m not sure how that works when allah changes his mind and abrogates, LOL!!).

    It is the teaching of the bible that is divine and inerrant, thus, non-canonical sources can be incorporated into the teaching.”

    Stupid, what difference does it make? Why would a “divinely inspired” even need to incorporate non-canonical sources into its teaching, especially if those sources contain what scholars regard as “fables”? Doubles standards much, Coco?

    And no, the “teaching of the Bible” is not “divine and inerrant”. Any reasonable person can see that when they read the Bible. It’s only you idiots who believe this laughable theory! LOL!!

    Oh and by the way, your god had human feelings. He would “regret” doing things, like creating mankind or installing Saul as king. 😉

    “The quran is supposed to be this amazing “revelation” that surpasses human genius, is beyond criticism, and stems from the mind of a “god”, allah itself. Yet, it uses known human fables and apocrypha and speculation from humans from other religions. Excuse me while I laugh…..LOL!!!”

    LOL!! More non-sequiturs! This is getting really bad for you Coco! The stories are used to make a moral point, you dingbat! Why wouldn’t God use well-known stories? They would be familiar to people and thus good examples to use to teach them.

    In contrast, your Bible appeals to pagan myths! Excuse me while I laugh…LOL!!!

    Here are some examples:

    1. Isaiah 13:21 refers to mythical beast known as “satyrs” which were common in Greek mythology.

    2. Daniel 7:9ff incorporates Canaanite pagan imagery to describe as an aged man with white hair. Scholars have known for a long time that this myth is copied from pagan beliefs about the deities El and Baal (https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/16/the-book-of-daniel/).

    3. Revelation 12 borrows from pagan imagery to describe the “woman clothed with the sun” and the “red dragon” which tried to devour her child. Scholars see parallels between this “vision” and the pagan stories about the birth of the sun-god Apollo (https://quranandbibleblog.wordpress.com/2015/05/31/the-book-of-revelation/#_ednref95).

    Ouch, that’s got to hurt!!!

    “LOL!! But these were destroyed, so all we have are muslim stories to account for their existence. Why were they destroyed? Likely there were insurmountable differences between “revelations”.”

    LOL!! But millions of people memorized the Quran as well!

    They were destroyed because there was no need for them anymore and because there were concerns that future generations, who could be ignorant like you (although no one is THAT ignorant), would use the manuscripts to divide themselves into sects, just like Christians have done with their Bible and the various canons and endless debates about which books are “canonical”. Muslims had the foresight to avoid this problem by destroying incomplete or imperfect manuscripts. But the main check was memorization. Your pathetic Bible has no such check in place. Ouch!!!

    “We both know which ones, are you really going to do this dance?”

    LOL, come now Coco. Quit stalling and prove your asinine claim. Let’s see the extent of your research. Go on. Use Google and find a Christian website that makes such idiotic claims and then I can then proceed to humiliate you further. Provide specific examples from specific manuscripts where “huge swaths” of the Quran are missing.

    By the way, I would love to see your little monkey dance. Dancing monkeys are just so adorable and precious!!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Where’d you go Coco? Up in your tree eating bananas?

      Like

    • qb

      “Muslims don’t rely only on manuscripts to show that the Quran is perfectly preserved.”

      Stupid pigboy. This is hilarious. We know you don’t rely on evidence, or rational historical reasoning, you rely on self-delusion and idiocy.

      Your quran has no historical credibility and scant theological credibility. Even muslims have to refer to hadith written hundreds of years after the events they supposedly describe in order to even have any religious practices. Let’s be honest, you could completely discard the quran and islam would look pretty much the same.

      Like

    • brother faiz, you’ve destroyed this guy, but i would like to remind you that you destroyed him last year too. it (jelly) has no shame for its dignity.

      Like

    • LOL, so the idiot simian avoids responding and then when pushed, he makes an even bigger fool of himself!

      Read carefully once again, you dunce. I said Muslims don’t rely SOLELY on manuscripts. You idiots still have no answer for the fact that Muslims have memorized the Quran from its inception. Your pathetic Bible, on the other hand, has no such check in place.

      Have you nothing to say about the pagan mythology in your Bible? What are you avoiding Coco?

      Liked by 1 person

    • “Stupid pigboy. ”

      jaybus wept!

      Like

    • Brother heath, I don’t recall talking with little Jelly previously, unless he is using a different username, which I wouldn’t put past these liars.

      Liked by 1 person

    • qb

      “You idiots still have no answer for the fact that Muslims have memorized the Quran from its inception.”

      LOL!! Memorized fables, fairy tales, and forged christian apocrypha. What’s your point? The quran still lacks historical and theological significance – you could throw it away and islam would look pretty much the same.

      Like

    • LOL, now Coco is trying to move the goal post! This monkey is really getting desperate!

      We were talking about preservation, you little chimp! Muslims not only have manuscripts to back up the Quran’s preservation, but also the fact that millions have memorized it from the beginning. Your Bible lacks both pieces of evidence. How embarrassing!

      Liked by 1 person

    • So Coco, I take it that you are baffled by the presence of pagan myths in your Bible?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Ah, the sound of silence…

      No answer is in itself an answer! Hahahaha!

      Like

    • qb

      Of course the quran is preserved – it made up of pre-existant forged christian, and rabbinic religious speculative written materials and fairy tales. Any kid alive today can recount a number of fairy tales that would make up a good chunk of the volume of the quran. What is your point?

      I could write a book today and preserve it to a far greater accuracy with a computer hard drive, a memory stick, and a printer than this so called miracle of the quran – with a bit of human technology, I can surpass allah and his silly “miracle”. LOL!!

      So, let’s recount: a goat could enter muslim paradise to become heathcliff’s eternal girlfriend and achieve allah’s eternal oneness, and with some human technology that any 12 year old these days could easily understand or even construct, I could surpass allah’s “preservation miracle”?

      Can’t you see how stupid you sound? I’m not calling you guys idiots for the sake of it – I mean it, you are really, really, stupid.

      Like

    • LOL, oh this just keeps getting worse for Coco! This is why it is better for an apologist to know when to shut up and stop humiliating himself further, but this simian just can’t keep his mouth shut! Oh well, more opportunities to humiliate him some more…

      So let’s recount:

      1. The simian in unable to demonstrate that the Quran has been corrupted
      2. The simian cannot refute the presence of pagan mythology in his Bible, as well as other fables and made-up events like the Massacre of the Innocents.

      Desperation has forced the little monkey to dance around every issue. Didn’t I say that dancing monkeys are just so adorable?

      Liked by 1 person

    • qb

      I’ll repeat….I can surpass your stupid “preservation miracle” with human ingenuity – humans can surpass your fake god’s miracles. Give it up, you are embarrassing yourself. We can even preserve fairy tales far better than the quran ever could – and we won’t kill folks for pointing out these are fairy tales. LOL!!

      Like

    • Coco, I’ll repeat…

      1. The simian in unable to demonstrate that the Quran has been corrupted
      2. The simian cannot refute the presence of pagan mythology in his Bible, as well as other fables and made-up events like the Massacre of the Innocents.

      Desperation has forced the little monkey to dance around every issue. Didn’t I say that dancing monkeys are just so adorable?

      The fact that the Quran did not technology to be perfectly preserved is even more proof of its divine origin! Thank you Coco for confirming this! You shot yourself in the foot again! Poor, poor chimp. That’s why one should never give a loaded gun to a monkey!

      Liked by 1 person

    • Run, little Coco, run! Your Bible borrowed from pagan mythology! Run, little simian!

      Like

  6. 3 persons one body

    but the only different in the trinity each person is detached.

    lol making it a singular person .

    ergo yhwhs oneness is like a PIGS oneness.

    Like

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