Such a creed is NEVER stated in Scripture. Maybe because they never heard of such a creed?
According to Jesus God is strictly 1 Person, not 3:
“You, Father, are the Only One Who is truly God”. John 17:3
Same with the Shema in Mark 12.29
Jesus replied,
“The most important commandment is this: ‘Listen, O Israel! TheLord our God is the one and only Lord.”
Categories: Bible, Christianity, God
Blogging Theology 
There are 2 possibilities regarding John 17:3,since I believe chapters 1-20 are by the same author.
Either he contradicts himself,since in John 1 he says God became a man,Jesus,or he expects us to interpret it using the rule of interpretation that says:
When you have 2 passages, by the same writer,
about the same or similar theme,and
one passage is clear and the other less clear,
then the clearer passage tells us the exact meaning of the less clear one.
I think,here my knowledge is basic,that it is said God in John 17:3 means God the Father.
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Regarding the gospels,the obstacles I see are the census in Luke,where he is using hyperbole regarding a local census,or in error.
The resurrection of the dead in Matthew after Jesus’ death is,I agree,with Michael Licona,a literary expression.Licona says in other books of antiquity they use it also,but no one was to take it literally.
All 4 gospels have the release of Barabbas,in place of Jesus.I think they use hyperbole when they say Pilate had the custom every Passover to release ANY prisoner the crowd wanted.
But there must be a basic truth,a person,a suspect or one guilty of a minor crime,would have been released.It s multiply-attested.
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The custom of releasing a prisoner during Passover by Pilate seems to have a basic historicity,it is like what happened in 362 AD,when Roman emperor Julian decided to rebuild the Temple of Jérusalem.
Julian was an ex-Christian,and he knew of a prophecy Jesus said in the Synoptics(Mark,Matthew,Luke),in:
Matthew 24:1-2
Mark 13:1-2
Luke 21:5-6
”As He was going out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, behold what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!”
And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down.””
Julian seems to have wanted to rebuild the Temple to prove Jesus was a false prophet.
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We have 6 accounts(one by a pagan,the others by Trinitarian Christians and Arian Christians) of what happened,the basic idea is something disruptive prevented the workers from rebuilding the temple.
These 6 six accounts were written within about 80 years of the event.
Three of the accounts are by contemporaries of Julian, the other by 2nd or 3rd generation writers.
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The first contemporary account was Ammianus,a pagan historian,and military officer,who participated in many of Julian’s campaigns.He wrote a history of the Roman empire. and was about 30 years old in 362 AD.
http://www.fisheaters.com/juliantemple.html
The Historian Ammianus Marcellinus (A.D. c.330 – 395)
“Res Gestae,” Book XXIII
”He [Julian ] planned at vast cost to restore the once splendid Temple at Jérusalem, which after many mortal combats during the siege by Vespasian and later by Titus had barely been stormed.
He had entrusted the speedy performance of this work to Alypius of Antioch… But though this Alypius
pushed the work on with vigor, aided by the governor of the province,
terrible balls of fire kept bursting forth near the foundations of the Temple
and made the place inaccessible to the workmen, some of whom were burned to death;
and since in this way the element persistently repelled them, the enterprise halted.
(“cum itaque rei idem fortiter instaret Alypius iuvaretque provinciae rector, metuendi globi flammarum prope fundamenta crebris adsultibus erumpentes fecere locum exustis aliquotiens operantibus inaccessum, hocque modo elemento destinatius repellente cessavit inceptum.”) ”
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The 2nd contemporary account is by a >b>Christian,who was about 35 in 362 AD:
http://www.fisheaters.com/juliantemple.html
Gregory Nazianzen (A.D. ca. 325-389)
“Second Invective Against Julian”
”3. He [Julian] was daily growing more infuriated against us, as though raising up waves by other waves…………….at last he stirred up against us the nation of the Jews, making his accomplice in his machinations their well-known credulity, as well as that hatred for us which has smouldered in them from the very beginning; prophesying to them out of their own books and mysteries that
now was the appointed time come for them to return into their own land, and to rebuild the Temple, and restore the reign of their hereditary institutions —- thus hiding his true purpose under the mark of benevolence.
4. And when he had formed this plan, and made them believe it (for whatever suits one’s wishes is a ready engine for deceiving people), they began to debate about rebuilding the Temple, and in large number and with great zeal set about the work.
For the partisans of the other side report that not only did their women strip off all their personal ornaments and contribute it towards the work and operations, but even carried away the rubbish in the laps of their gowns, sparing neither the so precious clothes nor yet the tenderness of their own limbs, for they believed they were doing a pious action, and regarded everything of less moment than the work in hand.
But they being driven against one another, as though by a furious blast of wind, and sudden heaving of the earth, some rushed to one of the neighbouring sacred places to pray for mercy; others, as is wont to happen in such cases, made use of what came to hand to shelter themselves; others were carried away blindly by the panic, and struck against those who were running up to see what was the matter. There are some who say that neither did the sacred place admit them, but that when they approached the folding doors that stood wide open, on coming up to them they found them closed in their faces by an unseen and invisible power which works wonders of the sort for the confusion of the impious and the saving of the godly.
But what all people nowadays report and believe is that when they were forcing their way and struggling about the entrance a flame issued forth from the sacred place and stopped them, and some it burnt up and consumed …………. But what is yet more strange and more conspicuous, there stood in the heavens a light circumscribing a Cross, and that which before on earth was contemned by the ungodly both in figure and in name is now exhibited in heaven, and is made by God a trophy of His victory over the impious, a trophy more lofty than any other! ”
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The 3rd contemporary account is by John Chrysostom,Christian,who was 15 years old in 362 AD:
http://www.fisheaters.com/juliantemple.html
John Chrysostom (A.D. 347-407)
“Homilies on Matthew”
Homily IV, Chapter II
” And what took place at a later period were few and at intervals; for example, when the sun stood still in its course, and started back in the opposite direction. And this one may see to have occurred in our case also.
For so even in our generation, in the instance of him who surpassed all in ungodliness, I mean Julian, many strange things happened.
Thus when the Jews were attempting to raise up again the temple at Jerusalem, fire burst out from the foundations, and utterly hindered them all;
and when both his treasurer,and his uncle and namesake, made the sacred vessels the subject of their open insolence, the one was “eaten with worms, and gave up the ghost,”the other “burst asunder in the midst.” ”
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There are 2 accounts from the second generation after the event:
By the Christian Sozomen,who says:”I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive”.
http://www.fisheaters.com/juliantemple.html
Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
“Ecclesiastical History”
Book V, Chapter XXII
”Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and opressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies…………..
Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers.
On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way.
The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense.
The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this.
Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation,
a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. …………………
The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.
This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance,
while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful.
A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression.
If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive.
Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it. ”
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The 2nd of the 2nd generation writers is Socrates Scholasticus
http://www.fisheaters.com/juliantemple.html
Socrates Scholasticus (ca. A.D. 379-450)
“Ecclesiastical History”
Book III, Chapter XX
”The emperor [Julian the Apostate] in another attempt to molest the Christians exposed his superstition. Being fond of sacrificing, he not only himself delighted in the blood of victims, but considered it an indignity offered to him, if others did not do likewise. And as he found but few persons of this stamp, he sent for the Jews and enquired of them why they abstained from sacrificing, since the law of Moses enjoined it?
On their replying that it was not permitted them to do this in any other place than Jerusalem, he immediately ordered them to rebuild Solomon’s temple. Meanwhile he himself proceeded on his expedition against the Persians. The Jews who had been long desirous of obtaining a favorable opportunity for rearing their temple afresh in order that they might therein offer sacrifice, applied themselves very vigorously to the work. Moreover, they conducted themselves with great insolence toward the Christians, and threatened to do them as much mischief, as they had themselves suffered from the Romans.
The emperor having ordered that the expenses of this structure should be defrayed out of the public treasury, all things were soon provided, such as timber and stone, burnt brick, clay, lime, and all other materials. necessary for building. ………………..
and on the night following, a mighty earthquake tore up the stones of the old foundations of the temple and dispersed them all together with the adjacent edifices. Terror consequently possessed the Jews on account of the event; and the report of it brought many to the spot who resided at a great distance: when therefore a vast multitude was assembled, another prodigy took place.
Fire came down from heaven and consumed all the builders’ Tools: so that the flames were seen preying upon mallets, irons to smooth and polish stones, saws, hatchets, adzes, in short all the various implements which the workmen had procured as necessary for the undertaking; and the fire continued burning among these for a whole day. The Jews indeed were in the greatest possible alarm, and unwillingly confessed Christ, calling him God: yet they did not do his will; but influenced by inveterate prepossessions they still clung to Judaism.
Even a third miracle which afterwards happened failed to lead them to a belief of the truth. For the next night luminous impressions of a cross appeared imprinted on their garments, which at daybreak they in vain attempted to rub or wash out. They were therefore ‘blinded’ as the apostle says, and cast away the good which they had in their hands: and thus was the temple, instead of being rebuilt, at that time wholly overthrown. ”
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The 3rd generation writer after the event is Theodoret (A.D. 397-451)
http://www.fisheaters.com/juliantemple.html
“Ecclesiastical History”
Book III, Chapter XV
”Julian, who had made his soul a home of destroying demons, went his corybantic way, ever raging against true religion. He accordingly now armed the Jews too against the believers in Christ. He began by enquiring of some whom he got together why, though their law imposed on them the duty of sacrifices, they offered none. On their reply that their worship was limited to one particular spot, this enemy of God immediately gave directions for the re-erection of the destroyed temple, supposing in his vanity that he could falsify the prediction of the Lord, of which, in reality, he exhibited the truth.
The Jews heard his words with delight and made known his orders to their countrymen throughout the world. They came with haste from all directions, contributing alike money and enthusiasm for the work; and the emperor made all the provisions he could, less from the pride of munificence than from hostility to the truth.
He despatched also as governor a fit man to carry out his impious orders. It is said that they made mattocks, shovels, and baskets of silver. When they had begun to dig and to carry out the earth a vast multitude of them went on with the work all day, but by night the earth which had been carried away shifted back from the ravine of its own accord. They destroyed moreover the remains of the former construction, with the intention of building everything up afresh; but when they had got together thousands of bushels of chalk and lime, of a sudden a violent gale blew, and storms, tempests and whirlwinds scattered everything far and wide. They still went on in their madness, nor were they brought to their senses by the divine longsuffering.
Then first came a great earthquake, fit to strike terror into the hearts of men quite ignorant of God’s dealings; and, when still they were not awed,
fire running from the excavated foundations burnt up most of the diggers, and put the rest to flight. Moreover when a large number of men were sleeping at night in an adjacent building it suddenly fell down, roof and all, and crushed the whole of them.
On that night and also on the following night the sign of the cross of salvation was seen brightly shining in the sky, and the very garments of the Jews were filled with crosses, not bright but black. When God’s enemies saw these things, in terror at the heaven-sent plagues they fled, and made their way home, confessing the Godhead of Him who had been crucified by their fathers. Julian heard of these events, for they were repeated by every one.But like Pharaoh he hardened his heart. ”
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Richard, do you believe that the earliest strata of New Testament evidence clearly shows that he is the God of Israel, i.e specifically the Second Person of the Trinity? Or on the other hand, it portrays Jesus as a Jewish Prophet, as Bart Ehrman maintains? What is your honest opinion regarding this?
The most eminent theologian and New Testament scholar Father Raymond Brown contends that the earliest strata of New Testament and historical evidence show that Jesus was certainly never identified as “theos” or “god” in any way.
“Jesus is never called God in the Synoptic Gospels, and a passage like Mark 10:18 would seem to preclude the possibility that Jesus used the title of himself. Even the fourth Gospel never portrays Jesus saying specifically that he is God. The sermons which Acts attributes to the beginning of the Christian mission do not speak Jesus as God. Thus, there is no reason to think that Jesus was called God in the earliest layers of New Testament tradition. This negative conclusion is substantiated by the fact that Paul does not use the title in any epistle written before 58.”
Brown, R. E. (1967). Jesus God and Man: Modern Biblical Reflections. Macmillan Publishers Co. p. 30; Cf. Brown. R. E. (1994). An Introduction to New Testament Christology. Ibid. p. 190
Again Father Brown draws our attention to this most unusual fact. Namely that the closer we get to the historical Jesus, the more of a Human Prophet he becomes, and hence less divine.This is clear evidence of theological innovation and evolution as time went on.
“The slow development of the usage of the title “God” for Jesus requires explanation. Not only is there the factor that Jesus is not called God in the earlier strata of NT material; but also there are passages, cited under A above, that by implication reserve the title “God” for the Father (even in the Pastorals and the Johannine literature). The most plausible explanation is that in the earliest stage of Christianity, the OT heritage dominated the use of “God”; hence “God” was a title too narrow to be applied to Jesus. It referred strictly to the One in heaven whom Jesus addressed as Father and to whom he prayed.”
Brown, R. (1994). An Introduction to New Testament Christology. Mahwah, New Jersey: Paulist Press. p. 192
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The point at Mark 12:29 was a perfect opportunity for Jesus to lay out his theology. Why is there no 3in1 idea expressed? Because Jesus did not believe in the Trinity belief.
There’s an equally significant moment for Paul (although he does not have authority like Jesus p has) but nevertheless he had his own moment to express his theology in 1 Cor 8:6. He says the Faher is the only God (theos). He doesn’t mention the Trinity belief. Why? It’s because it was formulated after him, he did not believe in the Trinity belief.
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Hello simple123site:
You asked:
“Richard, do you believe that the earliest strata of New Testament evidence clearly shows that he is the God of Israel, i.e specifically the Second Person of the Trinity?
Or on the other hand, it portrays Jesus as a Jewish Prophet, as Bart Ehrman maintains? What is your honest opinion regarding this?”
The earliest strata, from what I know,earlier than the Gospels,than Paul’s letters,than Q, are 2 things:
The 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 creed,which do not say Jesus was divine.
And the creation of the New Alliance,New Covenant,given by Jesus at the Last Supper.
The New Covenant,to replace the Mosaic Covenant,would involve the death of Jesus.
The Mosaic Covenant didn’t involve the death,sacrifice of Moses.
It appears in the Synoptics:
Matthew 26:26-29
Mark 14:22-25
Luke 22:19-20
Without it Christianity would just be a sect of Judaism.
Paul also gives us an oral tradition of this,which is in the same 1 Corinthians letter:
1 Corinthians 11:23-26
“For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus,
on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant
in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”
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The implication is this,when one is familiar with Judaism:
Why would the death of a mere man, bring about a New Covenant,to replace the Mosaic Covenant?
The implication is that man would be very special,have a spark of divinity,be a divine being.It doesn’t go as far as to say God,but at least a being who is human AND divine,is implied.
The replacement of Mosaic law appears in Hebrews,which is pre 70 AD,not the earliest,but it explains it:
Hebrews 8:7-13
“For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said:
(Jeremiah 31:31-34)
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made
the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”
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The New Covenant referred to in Jer. 31:31 is not that of Jesus’ New Testament but a reaffirmation with Israel of the importance of following the Old Law. Jer. 31:33 clearly states that God’s law (my law) will be put in them.
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A hallucination is in your mind,it doesn’t exist.If you see a vampire,the others don’t.
A delirium is when you are shown evidence your hallucination is false,but you continue to believe.
Eliminating the supernatural,levitation is impossible,then the following is the greatest case of collective hallucination in history,
for 35 years,
with thousands of witnesses in total
in about 100 different situations.
There was a man in Italy called Joseph of Cupertino(1603-1663) who levitated like 100 times during 35 years,in church or outside,usually during the day.
The latest book is “The Man Who Could Fly: St. Joseph of Copertino and the Mystery of Levitation”(2015) by Michael Grosso.
In an article by Grosso he writes:
https://rhinemagazine.wordpress.com/2013/10/08/why-levitation-by-michael-grosso/
“The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials:
cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen,
princes and princesses who personally lived by his word,
popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims.
There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation; and then decided it was enough. Streams of inexplicable events surrounded the black-bearded friar. Driven by malicious curiosity, even Joseph’s inquisitors observed him in ecstatic levitation during Mass. Their objection to him was not the fact that he levitated; they were concerned with where the power was coming from, God or the Devil?”
In another article by Grosso:”Evidence for St Joseph of Copertino’s Levitations” he writes:
Click to access Ch-1-Supp-Joseph.pdf
” Who — All kinds of people witnessed and deposed testimony certifying Joseph’s levitations: foreigners, ordinary illiterates, theologians, clerics, artists, pilgrims, doctors,
surgeons, dukes, princesses, kings, popes, cardinals,
and a raft of lynx-eyed Inquisitors from Rome and Naples.
All souls were not soothed by the phenomena; some felt “sacred fear” and ran away, some like a German Lutheran Duke were thrown into violent doubt about their beliefs, and others were suspicious of uncanny, perhaps devil-tainted powers
being in play.
One of Joseph’s awestruck superiors decided to use him to edify the public and dragged the obedient but reluctant friar on a tour with him around the province of
Lecce, visiting about fifty different convents. The trip took about a year. As it turned out,Joseph performed very well on this spiritual road show, so well that the Inquisitors took notice and made his life miserable by calling him to Naples for questioning.
He was forced to defend himself against the charge of “ostentatious sanctity” and was accused of “exploiting the credulity” of the masses. In the end, he was acquitted of all charges, but an undercurrent of fear and suspicion shadowed Joseph for the rest of his life.
The point:
There was never any suspicion about the reality of his phenomena; the grumbling was from concern over the origins of his powers and the purity of his motives.”
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Look, all these,”deductions” are meaningless, when Paul did not explicitly define the Trinity, and neither did Jesus. The Rule of Hermeneutics is that Clear Verses, Explicit Statements TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER UNCLEAR AND SHADY STATEMENTS. The Shema Yisrael recited by Jesus at Mark 12: 29 was well established as a Unitarian Creed long before Paul, Jesus or even the Prophets! Any deduction from unclear verses of scripture CONTRADICTING MOSES, JESUS AND THE PROPHETS MUST BE REJECTED. The Divinity of Christ smashes the Shema completely. And the fact the Jesus never explicitly stated it makes one thing clear: If Jesus was the Second Person of the Trinity, why did not he say it?
As far as the new covenant is concerned that’s slightly unrelated to the matter we were discussing. How come we have nothing that Jesus wrote? Or what his disciples wrote? This makes no sense! They all spoke Aramaic not the sophisticated Koine Greek essays the NT was written in decades later!
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To begin to answer,even in the OT there is gradual revelation.The OT says nothing about:
Life after death,no paradise.
No hell
And only lately,about a resurrection of the dead.
The OT says God is one,but Christian theology is also based on the NT,where there is more gradual revelation:
A second coming of the Messiah
A hell
Life after death
More about the nature of God.
The Gospel of John certainly says it is by a disciple,the Beloved Disciple,it even says he saw when Jesus was definitely killed,his side was punctured,and blood and a clear liquid came out
A spear pierced through the outer pericardium wall and into the heart, then the watery fluid(pericardial fluid) and blood poured out through the wound.:
John 19:32-35
” So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with Him; but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
And he who has seen has testified,
and his testimony is true; and
he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe.”
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About Jesus’ writings,he didn’t write a book,but we have 3 kinds of sayings scholars believe are by Jesus or there is a high probability:
“Son of Man” sayings
“I say to you” sayings:an expression meaning “I speak with authority”
“Kingdom of God” sayings
The most famous Son of Man sayings is:
“”The Son of Man must suffer many terrible things,” he said.
“He will be rejected by the elders, the leading priests, and the teachers of religious law. He will be killed, but on the third day he will be raised from the dead.“
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In John there are the I AM(ego eimi) sayings. I AM is God’s name,from Exodus 3:13-15:
“Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you.’ Now they may say to me, ‘What is His name?’ What shall I say to them?”
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,
“I AM has sent me to you.’”
God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.”
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In John,Mark,and Matthew:
Jesus walks on water,and identifies himself as I AM(ego eimi),God’s name.
Notice Mark begins his book by saying it is the message of Jesus:
Mark 1:1
“The beginning of the good news(gospel) of Jesus the Messiah”
Mark 6:49-51:
“But when they saw Him walking on the sea, they supposed that it was a ghost, and cried out; for they all saw Him and were terrified. But immediately He spoke with them and *said to them, “Take courage;I AM(ego eimi), do not be afraid.”
Then He got into the boat with them, and the wind stopped; and they were utterly astonished.”
Matthew 14:26-27
“When the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were terrified, and said, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out in fear.
But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take courage, I AM(ego eimi), do not be afraid.”
John 6:19-20
“Then, when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat; and they were frightened. But He *said to them, “I AM(ego eimi); do not be afraid.” “
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About information from the disciples themselves,Mark was not a disciple,but 2nd century books say he got his information from a disciple,Peter.Here is the earliest book.
Papias wrote a five volume work entitled, “Interpretation of the Oracles of the Lord”(120 AD). In this treatise (which no longer exists), he quoted someone he identified as ‘the elder’, a man who held considerable authority in Asia:
“And the elder used to say this, Mark became Peter’s interpreter
and wrote accurately all that he remembered, not, indeed, in order, of the things said and done by the Lord.
For he(Mark) had not heard the Lord, nor had followed him, but later on, followed Peter, who used to give teaching as necessity demanded but not making, as it were, an arrangement of the Lord’s oracles,
so that Mark did nothing wrong in thus writing down single points as he remembered them. For to one thing he gave attention, to leave out nothing of what he had heard and to make no false statements in them.”
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The second earliest book is from Justin Martyr(150 AD)’s book “Dialogue with Trypho” .Trypho was Jewish,and Simon was Peter’s real name,Peter or Rock,was his nickname,it says:
“It is said that he [Jesus] changed the name
of one of the apostles to Peter; and
it is written in his memoirs that
he(Jesus) changed the names of others,
two brothers, the sons of Zebedee, to Boanerges, which means ‘sons of thunder’.”
Only Mark’s Gospel describes John and James in this way,it is in Mark 3:13-19:
“And He(Jesus) went up on the mountain and summoned those whom He Himself wanted, and they came to Him.
And He appointed twelve, so that they would be with Him and that He could send them out to preach, and to have authority to cast out the demons.
And He appointed the twelve: Simon,to whom He gave the name Peter,
and James, the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James ,
to them He gave the name Boanerges, which means, “Sons of Thunder”;
and Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot; and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Him.”
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Regarding Peter as being the source of information for Mark,there is the literary technique called inclusio, present in the Gospel.
Scholars such as Michael F. Bird, Paul Barnett, Andreas J. Köstenberger,
and most notably Richard Bauckham(“Jesus and the Eyewitnesses”(2006) have highlighted this point.
Inclusio of eyewitness testimony is a literary devise where ancient writings would name the major eyewitnessof a book
first and last in the document.
Studies have been done on the writings of early writers in the ancient world such as the 2nd century Lucian of Samosata’s work “Alexander” and the 3rd century Porphyry’s work “Life of Plotinus” which engaged in this practice.
Regarding Porphyry,he was a Neoplatonic philosopher who was born in Tyre,who was the most famous disciple of Plotinus,the creator of neoplatonism.
So in his use of inclusio in his “Life of Plotinus”,Porphyry is saying he got his information from Plotinus himself.
When Mark practiced inclusio(jn Mark 1:16,Mark 16:7) he listed Peter as the eyewitness behind his gospel:
Notice it is the very beginning of Jesus’ career, and Peter appears first:
Mark 1:14-16
“Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen.”
The last chapter of Mark is chapter 16,it has Peter,it is after the resurrection:
Mark 16:7
“But go, tell His disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see Him, just as He told you.’”
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Renowned Professor of Christian Theology Adrian Thatcher wrote:
“There is scarcely a single competent New Testament scholar who is prepared to defend the view that the four instances of the absolute use of “I am” in John, or indeed most of the other uses, can be
historically attributed to Jesus.”
Adrian Thatcher, Truly a Person, Truly God (London: SPCK, 1990) p.77
New Testament scholarship considers the Gospel of John as a ”forgery of the most blatant kind”. Jesus never said any of the ”I AM ” statements!
Additionally, explicit verses, that are clear, must be used to interpret the unclear verses in the text. This is the first rule of hermeneutic. Not the other way round! You must interpret all verses that implicitly convey divinity of Christ through the lens of this verse
Αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή, ἵνα γινώσκωσίν σε τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεόν, καὶ ὃν ἀπέστειλας Ἰησοῦν χριστόν. John 17: 3
σε τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεόν ”’The ONLY TRUE GOD” IS IDENTIFIED AS THE FATHER.
se ton monon alēthinon Theon ”’The ONLY TRUE GOD”
John 17: 3 Identifies the Father as σε τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεόν ”’The ONLY TRUE GOD”
Explicit Clear and Absolute. All other verses must be seen through the lens that only the Father is God. 🙂 Not the other way round.
Check out this Article!
http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2015/05/12/ten-reasons-why-we-must-reject-the-gospel-of-john/
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Greetings Simple123:
Checked out the article,it has a lot of stuff,some of which I agree with.I will comment later on.
I forgot to add that Mark is not written in sophisticated Greek,it is written in bad Greek,unlike the other 3 gospels.
Mark also has the largest number of Aramaic words and phrases,with a Greek translation next to it.
The author was NOT a native Greek speaker,and Revelation is written in bad Greek also.
I don’t agree that the other I AM sayings in John mean Jesus is divine,or even God,but the Jesus walking on water incident is strong.It appears in 3 of the 4 gospels,including the earliest.
By context Jesus is not saying he is divine in the other 7 “I AM” sayings in John,with the possible exception of “I am the resurrection and the life”.The 7 other sayings are.
1. Bread
“I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger.” John 6:35
2. Light
“I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” John 8:12
3. Gate
“I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” John 10:9
4. Good Shepherd
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for His sheep.” John 10:11
5. Resurrection and Life
“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.” John 11:25
6. Way, Truth, Life
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” John 14:6
7. True vine
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1
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Since by context 7 of the I AM sayings don’t say Jesus is divine,then he could have said it.Or something similar,since the author of John paraphrases,to paraphrase means to write the same idea but using different words.
There are verses in the NT where the phrase “God and Jesus” appears,many in fact,as 2 separate beings.Like John 17:3:
“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
Because of this 2 of the 20,000 Protestant churches teach Jesus was divine,but not God.They are the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Church of Latter-Day Saints/Mormons.
In the 300’s Arius,a priest from Alexandria,came to the same conclusion,and the Arian church began,which converted all the Germanic tribes,except the Franks and Vikings.
The Arian church lasted about 300 years,and even Eusebius(4th century) the Father of Church History,changed from Trinitarian to Arian.
It is because of those verses that I believe one can honestly be a Christian and not believe Jesus was God.
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Regarding the article you linked:
http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2015/05/12/ten-reasons-why-we-must-reject-the-gospel-of-john/
I agree the story of the woman caught in adultery should not be in the gospel of John(John 8:2-11 ) since it is a later addtion.
About the day of Passover,there were 3 different passover meals on 3 different days,that of the Pharisees,that of the Sadducees and that of the Essenes.
The Essenes had their own sector in Jérusalem:
http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0160EsseneQ1.php
”The Gate of the Essenes must have been named after the people who lived there and used the gate to go in and out of Jerusalem. About 50 Essene kohanim lived in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem between 30 BC and 70 AD. ”
Josephus,the Jewish historian(44-100 AD) mentions the Gate of the Essenes in his ”Jewish War 5.145”:
http://www.centuryone.org/essene.html
”On the other side facing west, it began at the same starting point [Hippicus Tower], extended [south] through a place called Bethso to the Gate of the Essenes and turned thereafter facing south [but going east] towards the Pool of Siloam. ”
The Essenes had their own calender,celebrated Passover on a different day:
http://www.bibarch.com/concepts/calendrics/essene_calendar.htm
There was the ordinary Sabbath and the Passover sabbath which could fall on a day different from Friday night-Saturday:
” As Nisan 15, the annual Sabbath, or Passover Sabbath, marking the start of the seven-day Feast of Unleavened bread began at sunset Tuesday night, the Essene observance of the Passover Seder was always on a Tuesday night (Finegan 1998:43, 48).”
John saying the Last Supper took place before the Passover would be a reference to the Essene Passover.
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Oops,I meant the Pharisee Passover:
”John saying the Last Supper took place before the Passover would be a reference to the Essene Passover.”(correction:Passover of the Pharisees)
The Essenes were against polygamy and against slavery.
And from what we know men in Palestine then did not carry water jars,which was considered a woman’s job:
http://web.ccbce.com/multimedia/BLB/faq/nbi/1320.html
It is possible the Last Supper took place in the Essene quarter of Jérusalem:
”Only Women Carried Water In those Days
In Jesus’ day, only women carried water.
Even if male slaves carried water they did not use pots or jugs like the women did. Instead they would carry the water in skins. The man Jesus told his disciples to follow is not identified as a slave. These facts, it is argued, points to a community of people that did not have women or slaves.”
This appears in Mark and Luke:
Jesus says he will celebrate the Passover meal,he doesn’t say or deny it will be the same as the Essene Passover,but he tells his disciples to find a man carrying a jar of water.
Based on the evidence it is possible the man was an Essene
According to here:
http://jimspace3000.blogspot.ca/2016/06/how-did-jesus-find-place-for-passover.html
”Essenes. Essenes were mostly celibate, and their men did women’s work. They had their communities, not only in Qumran, but in various towns. They also had a community in Jerusalem.”
Josephus also wrote the Essenes were a total of 4,000 in Palestine,a small group.
Mark 14:12-16
”And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the passover lamb, his disciples said to him, “Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the passover?”
And he sent two of his disciples, and said to them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him,
and wherever he enters, say to the householder, ‘The Teacher says, Where is my guest room, where I am to eat the passover with my disciples?’ And he will show you a large upper room furnished and ready; there prepare for us.” And the disciples set out and went to the city, and found it as he had told them; and they prepared the passover.”
Luke 22:10-12
”He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you.
Follow him to the house that he enters, and say to the owner of the house, ‘The teacher asks: where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there” ”.
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I also mentioned the Saduccee Passover.From this Catholic article,there is more on that:
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/how-do-we-explain-the-passover-discrepancy
“In the synoptic Gospels, Jesus offers the Lord’s Supper “on the first day of unleavened bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb”
(Mark 14:12; cf. Matt. 26:17, Luke 22:7).
That would mean Jesus said the first Mass on Thursday, the fourteenth of Nisan.
This was “the day of preparation” for the Passover when the lambs were slain and the meal prepared to be eaten in the evening according to Ex. 12:6.
However, John tells us that Jesus was crucified on the “day of preparation” in John 19:31.
That would seem to make Friday, the fourteenth of Nisan, the day of preparation. Saturday would then have been both the Sabbath and the Passover. Is there a contradiction here? Let’s take a look.”
It continues and says:
“When Jesus cast the moneychangers out of the temple in John 2, he said, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again” (John 2:19).
The Jews told him it took[past tense] “forty-six years” to build the temple.
They speak as if the temple was completed. We know that the temple did take forty-six years to build and that it was completed around A.D. 25-26, according
to Jewish Antiquities of Josephus, XV.11.1. This fact reiterates what have seen so far, that Jesus most likely began his public ministry in A.D. 27 at about 32 or 33 years of age.”
Then it establishes the year Jesus was killed:
“Having established this, we can simply look at the Jewish calendar and see that in A.D. 30, Passover fell on Friday.
That lends credence to the theory that Jesus’ ministry was three years in duration. And remember, that means the fourteenth of Nisan would have been Thursday.
This would have been the day of preparation when the lamb was slain and the Passover meal eaten in the evening. The Jewish people counted their days as beginning the evening of the previous day. The actual day of Passover is the fifteenth of Nisan.
The only other year near A.D. 30 that Passover would have occurred on Friday was A.D. 33. Some do maintain that this was the year our Lord was crucified, but it does not fit with the rest of the facts as well. So we can be fairly certain that our Lord was crucified in A.D. 30.”
Then it refers to the other Passover,that of the Sadducees:
“According to The Navarre Study Bible, in Mark’s Gospel the Pharisees and Sadducees had a different way of celebrating feast days (51-52).
The Pharisees were strict in their observance. If the fifteenth of Nisan fell on Friday, then that would be the day they celebrated the Passover. The Sadducees, on the other hand, were more liberal and had no problem with moving a feast day in certain situations. ”
Then it says more:
“He[John] was speaking of the practice of the Sadducees, who had a large number of priests in their camp and great influence in the culture at the time.
This fact explains why John calls Friday the “day of preparation” instead of Thursday. The Sadducees, who moved the Passover to Saturday, celebrated the day of preparation on Friday, rather than on Thursday as Jesus and the apostles did.”
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The article you linked quoted:
“Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.”
[John 13:27-30]”
“This indicates that the group did not yet have what they needed for the Passover feast, which would mean the feast was yet to come.
Further evidence for this is provided by John 18:28, where Jesus’ accusers were delivering him to Pilate:
“Then they led Jesus from the house of Caiaphas to the governor’s headquarters. It was early morning. They themselves did not enter the governor’s headquarters, so that they would not be defiled, but could eat the Passover.””
“Buy what we need for the feast,”
“But could eat the Passover.”
Where to begin,the Passover is not one day but 8 days,and they have a Passover meal each day.
The “buy what we need for the feast” could refer to the first Passover meal or to the food necessary for the total 8 Passover days.
In this Jewish link it says:
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/871715/jewish/What-Is-Passover.htm
“Passover Observances
Passover is divided into two parts:
The first two days and last two days (the latter commemorating the splitting of the Red Sea) are full-fledged holidays.
Holiday candles are lit at night, and kiddush and sumptuous holiday meals are enjoyed on both nights and days. We don’t go to work, drive, write or switch on or off electric devices.
We are permitted to cook and to carry outdoors (click here for the details).
The middle four days are called chol hamoed, semi-festive “intermediate days,” when most forms of work are permitted.”
Would Jesus have allowed work to be done on the 1st Passover day,like buying food for the rest of the holiday?
Yes,because he said:“The Sabbath was made for man,not man for the Sabbath”
Even today,Orthodox Jews are allowed to eat pork,if it means to not starve,if there is no option,or to work on the Sabbath,if it is absolutely necessary.
Mark 2:23-27,and it is also in Matthew 12:1-8 and Luke 6:1-5
“And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.
The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” And He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?”
Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.””
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Greeting simple123site
There is much to comment,and it will become more detailed later.The link you gave said the spear thrust in John piercing Jesus on the cross was not historical.
There is more,the Shroud of Turin could be that of Jesus,to make it short,Ray Rogers,an atheist,one of the scientists who helped analyse it,was provoked by an article that said the samples used were a mixture of 1st century and 16th century threads.
Rogers had samples of the shroud,he tested them,and was convinced the article was true. He subjected his results to a peer-review group,it took them 6 months,they asked for me tests,in the end they confirmed it:
The samples used to date the shroud using Carbon 14(giving a date of around 1350,if I remember well,and by 3 laboratories,contain thread from the 16th century.
Ray Rogers and other asked the Pope to let them test other parts of the shroud,nothing.So the Pope is being stupid.
Several things are certain:
the image in the shroud is that of a real man
there is real blood there
the hands and feet were really pierced
the chest was pierced,there is a wound,like John said
the head was pierced with sharp objects,all around,the crown of thorns
.
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From 80,000 to 100,000 Jews were crucified by the Romans in Palestine in the 1st century,they were left to rot,no burial for them.
Michael Licona says,telling us the source,the book “The Jewish Wars” by Jewish historian Josephus(44-100):
http://www.thebestschools.org/special/ehrman-licona-dialogue-reliability-new-testament/licona-major-statement/
” It is often claimed that the Romans left the bodies of crucified victims on crosses for a while in order to let scavengers, such as birds, insects, and dogs, feed off the corpses before throwing them into a common pit.
This was the standard Roman practice throughout most of the empire.
However, the Romans made an exception in Jerusalem, apparently in order to pacify the Jews.
Josephus reported that the Romans allowed those crucified to be removed from their crosses and buried prior to sunset. This practice continued until AD 68 (Wars, 4:317).
Since Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem in either AD 30 or 33, the Romans would have allowed him to receive a proper burial prior to sunset.”
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The Romans sometimes pierced the crucifixion victim through the chest,sometimes not.
Carbon 14 dating is not an exact science,I have seen that is can be 200 years wrong,but if they test the shroud again,
and if the shroud is dated and the result is anywhere from 100 BC to 150 AD,then it is authentic,Why?
The Romans NEVER put a crown of thorns on the crucifixion victims,except in one case,that of Jesus,they were mocking him,calling him King of the Jews.
There is archeological evidence for what Josephus said:
Jehohanan was a man put to death by crucifixion in the 1st century AD,
before 70 AD, whose ossuary/bone box,with his name, was found in 1968 near Jerusalem.They found a nail still attached to one of his bones,he was a crucifixion victim,yet had received a burial.
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Greeting simple123site:
In the article your linked:
http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2015/05/12/ten-reasons-why-we-must-reject-the-gospel-of-john/
I agree that the soldiers falling before Jesus is,taken literally,not believable,unless it is taken as a metaphor,meaning,they were very surprised.
It is true that Peter and John were illiterate,as stated in Acts 4:13
”When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were illiterate, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.”
A.But the argument that John could not be the author of the Gospel of John for that reason is to deny the existence of secretaries and scribes whose job was to write for illiterates.
B.To say that John can’t be the author since he only spoke Aramaic,is to deny the existence of bilingual secretaries Aramaic-Greek.
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Having a bilingual non-Jewish secretary would explain why he has Jesus,a Jew,say:
“In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.” [John 8:17]
”Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’” [John 10:34]
”But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’ ” [John 15:25]
Since it was a non-Jew who was writing John’s memories,but using his own words.
Another reason could be that Jesus’ critics were saying he,Jesus,was not Jewish,but a Samaritan.It appears in chapter 8 of John,so Jesus was being sarcastic.
The Samaritans were a people half-Jewish,1 million,then Palestine was divided into 3 régions:
Judea,with Jérusalem,Samaria,and Galilee.Samaria was between Judea and Galilee.
The Samaritans had ther own Torah or Law,which was somwhat different from the Jewish Torah.
In John 8 the Pharisees are debating Jesus:
John 8:13
”The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.””
John 8:13-17
”Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid,……In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.”
John 8:37
”I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word.”
Then the Pharisees say something that seems to say Jesus was not the real son of Joseph:
John 8:41
”“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.””
John 8:48
”The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?””
John 8:58-59
”“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I AM” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”
I had forgot this I AM saying,where by the context,he does identify himself using God`s name.
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In another incident,again with his critics,where he seems to say ”your Law” in a sarcastic way:
John 10:21-24
”Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jérusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.
The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.””
As said before,there was the rumor that Jesus was a Samaritan,the Samaritans only accepted the Pentateuch or Torah(first 5 books of the OT)as the Word of God:
http://www.bibleodyssey.org/en/people/related-articles/samaritans.aspx
The Samaritans rejected Psalms as the Word of God.
In John 10:30-34 Jesus says:
”I and the Father are one.”
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
(Here Jesus is being sarcastic)
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods””(Psalm 82:6)
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Even the last one could be seen as a sarcastic remark by Jesus regarding that some Pharisees said he was a Samaritan. Remember,the Samaritans rejected Psalms;
It is the Last Supper:
John 15:24-25
”If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin.
As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated(the Pharisees?)
both me and my Father.
But this is to fulfill what is
written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.”(Psalms 35:19 and 69:4)
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Changing the subject,the levitations of St Jospeh of Cupertino is,eliminating the supernatural,the most astounding example of collective hallucination.
But the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima,Portugal in 1917 lasted only 15 minutes,only 1 time,yet was the collective hallucination with the greatest number of persons:40,000 to 70,000.
From memory,as far as 20 miles away,for 15 minutes,the sun went zig-zag and was dancing, and it changed to all the colors of the rainbow.
We have the written accounts of 100 witnesses,several of who were non-believers,and they say the same thing.
Astronomers say nothing happened to the sun according to their telescopes,and if it had danced,it would have been the end of our planet. Only those in Fatima and nearby saw it,nowhere else.
For those interested in the evidence for an early dating of the Shroud of Turin,this documentary is good to get the basic idea(43 minutes).
It could be a forger in the 1st century made the shroud,but till now,scientists today have not been able to duplicate the shroud,make a similar product.A 1st century forger would have to have been extremely lucky or a scientific genius.
One of the people who thinks,so far,that based on the new evidence,that it is probably 1st century,is a Jewish researcher,Barrie Schwortz,who participated in a group that analyzed the shroud in Italy.
He says if a new dating shows it is of the Middle Ages,it is alright with him,he just wants to know the truth,so a new Carbon 14 test is necessary.
Here is the video:
And here is Barrie Schwortz’ website on the shroud:
https://www.shroud.com/
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Regarding the women at the tomb and what really happened,scholars always place the Synoptics first,so even if they contradict each other,the essential details agree:
A group of women,Mary Magdalene among them went to the tomb,
at least 1 angel appears and tells them Jesus resurrected
It is in:
Mark 16:1-8
Matthew 28:1-7
Luke 24:1-10
Mary Magdalene also appears at the empty tomb in John 20:1-3
Remember,conclusion 1 and 2 of John explicitly say they do not relate everything that happened:
John 20:30-31
”Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples
that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.”
John 21:25
”There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if
these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”
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Jesus also had women disciples, like Mary Magdalene.
Matthew is the only one who says Jesus personally appeared to women disciples,with the exception of Jesus appearing to Mary Magdalene in John.
Neither Luke nor Mark have Jesus personally appearing to women disciples.
Matthew 28:8-10
” Then they went away quickly from the tomb, fearful yet overjoyed, and ran to announce this to his disciples.
And behold, Jesus met them on their way and greeted them. They approached, embraced his feet, and did him homage. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me.””
So what appears in Matthew would correspond to:
”Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book.”
”There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if
these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books”
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In the Synoptics Mary Magdalene goes with a group of women,and contrary to popular belief,Mary Magdalene was also with a group of women in John,not alone.
John 20:1-3
”On the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala came to the tomb early in the morning, while it was still dark, and saw the stone removed from the tomb.
So she ran and went to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and told them, “They have taken the Lord from the tomb, and WE don’t know where they put him.”
So Peter and the other disciple went out and came to the tomb. ”
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The consensus is that Mark wrote first,at the same time Q was produced.
Then Matthew and Luke copied Q and from Mark.
And there is independent information in both Luke and Matthew(called L and M) that is
neither in Mark,Q nor John.
It is called the Two Source Theory.
Another theory is that Mark,Luke and Matthew and even John all wrote independently,never knowing each other,but wrote different oral traditions.
That would explain the différences in the woman at empty tomb accounts.
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How does all this adress the topic
Such a creed is NEVER stated in Scripture. Maybe because they never heard of such a creed?
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Another theory in the Augustinian one,by St Augustine:
Matthew wrote first:
Then Mark and Luke copied from him(Matthew).
And Luke copied from Mark also,but not vice versa.
The Griesbach Theory:
Matthew wrote first:
Then Mark and Luke copied from him(Matthew).
And Mark copied from Luke,but not vice versa.
The REAL problem here is that Mark is written in bad Greek
and Luke and Matthew in perfect Greek.
How is it believable that Mark copied from a perfect Greek Matthew(Augustinian theory),
yet wrote in bad Greek?
How is it believable that Mark copied from a perfect Greek Matthew
and a perfect Greek Luke(Griesbach theory),
yet wrote in bad Greek?
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God can do anything
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Hello Burhanuddin1:
I am addressing a point stated in the link given by simple123site about the gospel of John:
http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.com/2015/05/12/ten-reasons-why-we-must-reject-the-gospel-of-john/
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I cannot see how
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Another theory is the Farrer Theory:
Mark wrote first and Luke and Matthew copied from him,
and Luke also copied from Matthew.
Accepting the Two-Source Theory and the Farrer theory as the most likely:
We have to give precedence to Mark’s version of the events:
Mark 16:1-8
It names 3 women:
Mary Magdalene,
Mary, the mother of James(James,the brother of John?),
and Salome
”When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go and anoint him.
Very early when the sun had risen, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb. They were saying to one another, “Who will roll back the stone for us from the entrance to the tomb?”
When they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back; it was very large.
On entering the tomb
they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a white robe, and they were utterly amazed.
He said to them, “Do not be amazed! You seek Jesus of Nazareth, the crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Behold, the place where they laid him. But go and tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you.’”
Then they went out and fled from the tomb, seized with trembling and bewilderment.”
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Matthew has it differently:
Though he copied from Mark,he only mentions 2 women,though he doesn’t say they were the only ones:
Mary Magdalene
The other Mary
Matthew 28:1-9
”After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, approached, rolled back the stone, and sat upon it.
His appearance was like lightning and his clothing was white as snow. The guards were shaken with fear of him and became like dead men.
Then the angel said to the women in reply,
“Do not be afraid! I know that you are seeking Jesus the crucified. He is not here, for he has been raised just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples, ‘He has been raised from the dead, and he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him.’ Behold, I have told you.”
Then they went away quickly from the tomb, fearful yet overjoyed, and ran to announce this to his disciples. And behold, Jesus met them on their way”
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Luke has it differently,he mentions more women than Mark:
Mary Magdalene,
Mary, the mother of James(James,the brother of John?),
Joanna(not mentioned in Mark or Matthew)
the “other women”(which would include the Salome,mentioned in Mark)
Luke 24:1-11
“But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
but when they entered,
they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
While they were perplexed about this, behold,
two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing; and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them,
“Why do you seek the living One among the dead? He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.”
And they remembered His words, and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James;
also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles. But these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them.”
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One has to look at this logically,3 of the 4 gospels say the women found the stone rolled away.
They don’t mention them seeing an angel roll it,and then talking to them(Matthew):
John 20:1-3
”On the first day of the week, Mary of Magdala came to the tomb early in the morning, while it was still dark, and saw the stone removed from the tomb.”
Luke 24:1-11
“But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
but when they entered,
they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.”
Mark 16:1-4
”When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go and anoint him.
Very early when the sun had risen, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb. They were saying to one another, “Who will roll back the stone for us from the entrance to the tomb?”
When they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled back; it was very large.
On entering the tomb“
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A.So all you can get from Matthew is that it was an angel who rolled the stone(not mentioned in Mark,Luke,John)
B.Matthew is wrong in saying an angel spoke to the women right away,the other accounts say they found an empty tomb.
C.John doesn’t say Mary Magdalene and the other women,included in her use of the word WE, went inside and saw an empty tomb,but
it is logic itself to deduce it.Why would Mary Magdalene run and say they stole the body,unless she had looked inside the tomb?
D.Mark and Luke both say the women entered the tomb.
Based on the evidence,that Mark got the information from Peter,what happened was:
The women,including Mary Magdalene, found the stone rolled away,the entered,saw it empty.
After entering,at least one angel appeared and said Jesus had resurrected.
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So either Matthew didn’t copy from Mark,
and was not really a disciple,the real Matthew,since he got basics wrong,or
he clumsily telescoped the narrative,and it turned out seeming that the angel was sitting on the stone,and spoke to the women immediately.
To telescope means to condense a narrative,shorten it,cut out details.
The telescoping technique was used by Luke in the last chapter,24,,and it seemed as if Jesus went to heaven after the resurrection(Ascension)
a few days after he had resurrected,
instead of staying for 40 days,as is stated in Acts chapter 1.
Matthew 28:1-9
”After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb.
And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, approached, rolled back the stone,
and sat upon it.
His appearance was like lightning and his clothing was white as snow. The guards were shaken with fear of him and became like dead men.
Then the angel said to the women in reply,
“Do not be afraid! I know that you are seeking Jesus the crucified. He is not here, for he has been raised just as he said.
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The telescoping technique as used by Luke:
Luke 24:33-53
” And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them, saying, “The Lord has really risen and has appeared to Simon.” ………….While they were telling these things, He Himself(Jesus) stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” …………………………….You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. While He was blessing them,
He parted from them and was carried up into heaven. And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising God.”(end of Luke)
Acts 1:1-11
“The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God. Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised………………………………..And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.
They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
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What I think most probably happened was the following:
A.The women entered the tomb and saw it was empty.
B.Mary Magdalene was inside,then left to say it was stolen.
C.Then a while later,an angel appeared to say Jesus had resurrected.
Luke 24:2-3 says:
“And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing.”
If,as I think,their period of perplexity was several minutes,before the angel appeared,then it would explain why Mary Magdalene didn’t see any angel in the tomb in John,but had gone to say the body had been stolen.
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Another example of telescoping or compression,which is condensing events,omitting details is
how many times the disciples fell asleep while Jesus was praying and waiting to be arrested.
According to Mark,who was copied by Luke,and according to Matthew,who copied Mark,the disciples slept three times.
But Luke telescopes it,and it seems to be only one time.
It is in Luke 22:39-47
” And He came out and proceeded as was His custom to the Mount of Olives; and the disciples also followed Him. When He arrived at the place, He said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.”
And He withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and began to pray………………………..When He rose from prayer, He came to the disciples and found them sleeping from sorrow, and said to them, “Why are you sleeping? Get up and pray that you may not enter into temptation.”
While He was still speaking, behold, a crowd came, and the one called Judas, one of the twelve, was preceding them; and he approached Jesus to kiss Him.”
Mark 14:32-42
” They came to a place named Gethsemane; and He said to His disciples, “Sit here until I have prayed.”
And He took with Him Peter and James and John, and began to be very distressed and troubled. And He said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved to the point of death; remain here and keep watch.”
And He went a little beyond them, and fell to the ground and began to pray …………………And He came and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, Simon, are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? …………….. Again He went away and prayed, saying the same words.
And again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy; and they did not know what to answer Him.
And He came the third time, and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? It is enough; the hour has come; behold, the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!””
It is also the same in Matthew,the disciples sleep 3 times:
Matthew 26:36-46
“Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.”
And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be grieved and distressed. Then He said to them, “My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me.”
And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed……………….. And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “So, you men could not keep watch with Me for one hour? ……………………..
He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, “My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done.”
Again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy.
And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more.
Then He came to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!””
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