This is precisely right. The Jews had no idea of the Trinity. Their faith was centred in the Shema: a unitary monotheistic confession. However, Jesus clearly affirmed that very same unitary monotheism in Mark 12.29. How is it that Christians today have abandoned their rabbi on this point?
Categories: Bible, Christianity, God
Blogging Theology 
So much for the assumption of Unitarianism….lol.
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I think it’s a case of progressive revelation myself. First the unitarian nature of God had to be established in the OT. In such a way of course as to leave room for a trinitarian interpretion of God. Such as the appearances of the Angel of the Lord. It would hardly have made sense to reveal the trinitarian nature of God before the incarnation of Christ. Both fit naturally together.
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Why would it not make sense? let’s suppose the trinity was established in the beginning. Does trinity by nature presuppose incarnation so that it could not have been stated before the incarnation of Christ?
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The redemptive and the revlatory purpose of God both reached their apex together in Jesus Christ, the Word incarnate, dovetailing perfectly with each other.
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Erasmus
Progressive revelation? of what? God? God revealing who He is in parts? Does that means the old prophets and their followers worshiped part of God that was revealed to them?
Abraham, Moses, etc. and all prophets of God never worshiped Jesus but only one God as this
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
3.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
4.”Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
5.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
Jesus himself worshiped the above God of the Bible both OT and NT and are you telling me by progressive revelation they worshiped half God? or part of God?
Because by progressive revelation you mean God did not complete revealing Himself the Old prophets including Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ never prayed to himself or prayed to Trinity.
I need further explanation from you Father Victor or any Christian. We are all learning. I know by progressive revelation of God you mean the initial revelation of God as One, Only and Alone is not complete and Jesus and all prophets worshiped uncompleted God.
That is what progressive revelation of who God is means. You can clarify please.
Thanks.
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Another Unitarian Christian book coming hot off the press.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0967324939/ref=ya_st_dp_summary#immersive-view_1471874532202
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Deuteronomy 6:4 declares that “God is one,” but interestingly, instead of the Hebrew word for solitary, absolute oneness (yachid) this passage employs the word for unified oneness (echad). The word yachid is never used in reference to God (Elohim) in the Old Testament. What is the earthly likeness for such unified oneness? “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one (echad) flesh.” (Genesis 2:24) Jesus’ words in Mark 12.29 should be taken the same manner, which allows for the unified oneness of the Persons of the Trinity.
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Victor,
Here is a different take on the Shema.
http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/echad.html
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Thank you for your link. It seems there is more debate over yachid/yachad and echad than I knew. Apparently, echad is sometimes used for a unified entity (like Genesis 2:24’s one flesh union or Genesis 11:6’s one people) but often used to denote singularity. It is interesting that the “oneness” of God in Deuteronomy 6:4 leads to the conclusion that we ought to love God with the unified oneness of three aspects of ourselves: “You shall love the LORD, your God, with your whole heart, and with your whole being, and with your whole strength.”
Click to access tricha-1.pdf
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With the name of Allah The Gracious The Merciful
This os a flawed reasoning to make sense of trinitarianism in Shema. Trinitarian Christians often employ creative theology in trying to make sense of their erroneous belief that “God” is three in one. The hebrew word אֶחָד echad, in the Shema (D’varim/Deut 6:4) simply mean ONE. The word does mean a “compound unity,” or many things as one group. Of course echad אֶחָד can be used as one group as any other language function, but you need additional context, and nowhere it is provided, like in Genesis 2:24 where it refer to husband and wife in the unity of marriage not one flesh like siamese-twin
The word אֶחָד ’echad’ is used approximately 900 times in the TaNaCh , and never, not one of those times is it ever used to describe two, three, four, or five, or anything else other than ‘one‘ – it always means “one.”.
How does one COUNT “one , two, three ….” in modern Hebrew?
א ,ב ,ג …
echad, shnayim, shlosha ..(masc)
achat, shtayim, shalosh ..(fem)
Of like in any other language the word ‘echad’ in a few of those cases could also means ‘ONE’ , In the Tanakh we also find 1 – flock, 1 – pride, 1 – herd, 1 – house, 1 – crowd, 1 – tribe, 1 – cluster, 1 – thousand, 1 – generation, 1 – portion and so on. Nevertheless אֶחָד echad always means numeralically “1.
If echad means one group, how do we passages like in Genesis 21:15: and Genesis 22:2?
Genesis 21:15:
“she cast the child under one (echad) of the bushes”
did Hagar put her dying child Ishmael under many different bushes all at the same time??
Of course not!
and Genesis 22:2:
“bring him up there for a burnt offering on one (echad) of the mountains, of which I will tell you”
did God tell Abraham to take his son up onto multiple different mountains ?
Of course not!
It is impossible to apply trinitarian non-sensical re-definition of the word אֶחָד echad as “one group” for those verses.
If there is no further context אֶחָד echad always means numerically “one.” just like in any other language. So the plain reading of the the Shema is always monotheism not 3in1 god.
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Victor,
That is intresting. I admit up front that I have my own assumptions and am not as objective due to my ingrained beliefs I hold about YHWH. If there are any books you wouldn’t mind pointing me to that makes a great case for the Trinity please let me know.
Thanks and God bless
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I would suggest approaching the Holy Trinity in the same way the first Christians came to this knowledge; through Jesus of Nazareth. Some dismiss the Christology of John’s Gospel as later theological development, but even the Gospels thought to be written earlier show Jesus doing and saying things only God could rightly do (e.g., forgiving sins, declaring himself lord of the Sabbath, demanding an absolute total commitment to himself, etc.) One book I’d recommend that explores this is Pope Benedict’s 2007 “Jesus of Nazareth (Part 1)” In it, Benedict spends a good deal of time discussing Rabbi Jacob Neusner’s book, “A Rabbi Talks with Jesus.” In the words of this article (tinyurl.com/gonn5rl) “The central issue that prevents the rabbi from believing in Jesus is his revealing himself as God: the same scandal that led Jesus to his death.”
If you are truly interested, I’d be happy to order you a copy online and have it shipped to you. I can be reached at victorfeltes at the gmail with the dot com.
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To any traditianal Jew through out history. someone calling himself god would be a violation of idolatry. i don’t think jesus even made that claim, but if he did ever make that claim, than he was not a rabbi but an idol… which the Torah doesn’t like, and is punishable by death….
saying ther tanakh belives in the Trinity is like saying the NT belives in Greek Mythodology….. You can push it in backwardly if you try hard enough for 2000 years, but it will always sound absurd to an objective mind..
I never read the Bible in any language besides its original… half of the claims in missonary booklets are just outrageous…
As long as Jesus was looked upon as a rabbi, there were some Jews that joined his following, when they started worshipping him, Chritianity only attracted pagans….
all the best, blessings
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Thank you for your comment, Mozer, glad to know a brethren in monotheism who know hebrew in this blog. Are you Jewish?
We Muslims feel the same way with missionary claims that God somehow became man in Jesus. I dont even know what does it mean by “God became man” like missionary told us, anyone make association to God is a grave violation to original teaching of Biblical monotheism, an avodah zarah, a shirk, unforgivable sin.
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I am Jewish, Eric. I see you have an understanding in Hebrew. Where are you from? Nice to meet you too….
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Shalom Mozer, Im Indonesian living in Jakarta.
Yes, I love learning biblical hebrew and its grammar because there’s many similarities with classical arabic which I have proficiency in although Im far from fluency, still can’t read without the niqqud 🙂 .
Believe it or not here we have group of Muslims who seriously studied the Tanakh in original Hebrew and rabbinic literatures, we have so much in common, our sharia not much difference with Halacha. It could well mean that our tradition comes from the same divine sources the Abrahamic faith, not the pseudo-abrahamic belief like 3in1 god.
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I agree. We do have more in common than people think. It’s very interesting what your saying about your group in Jakarta… I heard that rabbi Tovia Singer moved there lately, you familiar with him?
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Oh yes, rabbi Tovia Singer is a good friend of my friend who is a judeo-arabic specialist with whom I learnt Rabbi Rambam aka سعيد بن يوسف الفيومي / סעיד בן יוסף אלפיומי great works .
Rabbi Tovia helps to setup a synagogue eitz chaim for small jewish congregation here in Jakarta, most of the congregation were from christians background who turned back to Judaism. Rabbi Tovia works with muslims for charity works. We also plan to do joint work in counter missionary with his eitz chaim
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fascinating… almost unbelievable… The rabbis Rambam, Sa’adia, Bachya, Haleivi all wrote their works in Arabic so you get to read that in its original… I hope the light will shine from Jakarta and spread to the MiddleEast…. it can use some of that co respect and coexistence..
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Amen. B’ezrat Hashem
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Hi everyone
It was interesting that I have been writing a piece on a subject called “the gospel of the Memra”
It states…in all of the Palestinian Aramaic translations of the bible we find the following.
The term Memra- as a translation of various terms, which in the Hebrew either simply means God or are names of God.
Genesis 3:1…and the Memra of God said “Let their be light” and the same thing is seen throughout the following verses.
Genesis 3:8…And they heard the voice of the Memra of God…and the Memra of God called out to man
Genesis 19:24…And the Memra of God rained down on Sodom and Gormorah brimstone and fire from God out of heaven.
The Memra of God functions in the way we see the Logos in Christian theology.
So I would say you need to stop accusing Christians of making things up in regards to the trinity
The Memra is something that has been known to the Jews for a very long time.
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//The term Memra- as a translation of various terms, which in the Hebrew either simply means God or are names of God.//
Memra is not hebrew but actually aramaic ( meimra מֵימְרָא ) and it does not mean God it literally means a “saying”. The usage in targumim מֵימְרָא דִּייָ (saying of Adonai) was also never designated as deity. There was never a time when the jews worshipped Memra
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Hi Eric
You obviously didn’t read what I said..,where did I say Memra was Hebrew? I said the Palestinian ARAMAIC translation.
What is the context that is in used in the Aramaic text?
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Erasmus, Father Victor or any Christian
Your idea of progressive revelation to complete who God is will render all prophets of God of Abraham to worship incomplete God because they did not worship Jesus Christ, Trinity or Triune God. Any explanation with regards to my concern?
Thanks.
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All analogies touching on the Trinity fall short (see tinyurl.com/ogc8on7) but let me offer one:
Imagine being introduced to a friendly and engaging man at a dinner-party. In the course of your conversation you learn that he is a doctor, married, and has three kids. Now this doctor was a husband and a father from the first moment you met him, but you came to know him more fully over time.
Similarly, God has always been a Trinity of Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; acting, speaking, and revealing in ancient times and throughout salvation history. Abraham and the prophets’ understanding of God were not as filled-out as in later generations, but they did indeed know and love God.
I hope that is helpful.
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Fr Victor you analogy is heretical: modalism.
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Funny.
Of course, the parallel I’m making is not that God is one person wearing three different hats (modalism), but that Abraham and the prophets can be in loving relationship with God without yet understanding the Trinity. For example, one interesting episode is Abraham’s three visitors in Genesis 18: “The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oak of Mamre… Looking up, he saw three men standing near him.” Now two of this trio are later called angels (Genesis 19:1), but more precisely these are “messengers,” and the Son and the Holy Spirit do indeed serve the Father this way, revealing the Father among men. Did Abraham perceive in his guests what Christians suspect in retrospect, that this was a manifestation of the Holy Trinity? Likely not, yet Abraham could still commune in the presence of God.
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‘Did Abraham perceive in his guests what Christians suspect in retrospect, that this was a manifestation of the Holy Trinity? Likely not..’
Precisely.
Back to Jesus: did he preach the doctrine of the Trinity, so vital to Christian faith?
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In the course of the Jewish Scriptures, we can see God developing humanity along; from polytheism to monotheism, from polygamy to monogamy, from blood vengeance to “an eye for an eye.” That the LORD was not just one god among many the gods–but the only god, was a revelation His people learned over time. (See Exodus 3:13)
When Jesus comes He extends the revelation further; “Love your enemies,” “What God has joined let no man separate,” “The Father and I are one.”
My point: To argue Christian beliefs cannot be true because they were not previously known among Jews is like saying there cannot be only one God because this was not clear to the patriarchs.
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The Jewish leaders, by their question to Jesus – Mark 14:60-64 and Matthew 26:63-68 – they showed that the understood that the OT taught that the Messiah would also be the Son of God.
As for Trinitarianism in the OT, contra to Witherington’s comment, why do you think the Hebrew OT uses the plural most of the time for the one true “God”? ( Elohim, אלהים ? )
It seems to be a hint at Trinitarianism.
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Jesus said:
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
John 8:56-58
Abraham believed in the Messiah to come, promised to come from his own body (a future descendent).
Genesis 15:1-6
Belief in The LORD, (Yahweh- יהוה ) was an implicit belief in the Messiah who would also be Son of God, which means the same nature/substance as God the Father; which points to the Trinity.
Progressive revelation fills in the details later. We accept all of OT and NT. The NT gives us the fulness of what God was talking about in the OT.
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There is no evidence in the Jewish scriptures that Abraham believed in the “messiah to come” or the trinity. He was a Unitarian monotheist like Muhammad.
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Yes, that is what Genesis 15:1-6 and John 8:56-58 means – the one who come from his own body as the promised one who would crush the serpent’s head (Genesis 3:15) and be a blessing to all the nations (Gen. 12:3; 15:1-6; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14; 49:10; Psalm 67; 96:3; Isaiah 49:6; 42; 53, Daniel 7:13-14; 9:24-27; Psalm 2, Proverbs 30:4
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but nowhere does it mention a messiah. That is my point. You says it does. It does not.
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It does not have to say the word “Messiah” in order to be about the Messiah – even Jews today admit that their main texts for a future Messiah – Isaiah 11, Ezekiel 34 don’t have the word “Messiah” in it.
But Messiah is a clear word in Daniel 9:24-27 and Psalm 2:1-12 – about Jesus and His work of atonement and being the Son of God.
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But you implied that Abraham DID consciously think of the Messiah:
“Abraham believed in the Messiah to come, promised to come from his own body (a future descendent).”
I do not read that in anywhere in Genesis. More eisegesis than exegesis methinks.
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They OT saints believed in the promise of God to send someone who would crush the serpent’s head (Genesis 3:15) and be the seed of Abraham and seed of David. The Jews themselves applied the concept of Messiah to all that previous revelation. Abraham believed in the LORD (Yahweh) and His promise to provide the son from his own body – Genesis 15:1-6. Jesus Al Masih said that was about Him in John 8:56-58. Progressive revelation; as others have pointed out.
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do these passage say that? I think not.
Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12 for example do not mention a messiah ANYWHERE. In fact OT scholars today recognise they refer to Israel.
Neither does Psalm 22.
Paul in 1 Corinthians claims:
‘Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.’
But Paul was wrong. Nowhere do the Jewish scriptures say this about the messiah.
Nowhere is it prophesied that God would become a man, die and be raised on the third day. Its all a Christian invention.
OUCH!
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All the Jewish Rabbis and teachers that you put up to bolster your Islamic view, understand Isaiah 11 and Ezekiel 34 and Isaiah 65-66 and Ezekiel 40-48 as about the future and future Messianic Age and yet the word “Messiah” is not there either.
Answer that.
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easy: I believe Jesus was the messiah. So does every Muslim.
But your belief that the messiah/God will die to atone for sins is not found in the Jewish scriptures.
OUCH!
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no, because Daniel 9:24-27 and Isaiah 52:13-15 and 53:1-12 and Psalm 22 clearly connect the Messiah to come with the work of atonement and redemption.
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How so?
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Please read those passages. With NT revelation such as Mark 10:45 / Matthew 20:28 (and everything else in NT) it is clear.
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I’m not to sure i fully grasp the point Ben is making, if he believes that Jesus is the God the Son does that not mean he was also fully God? (i’ll not repeat the divine name out of respect for the Jewish readers of the blog)
What i mean by fully God is that he in his being contained the fullness of the divine nature as traditional Christian doctrine teaches and if God is by definition three persons and that each person is fully God not a part of God then wouldn’t the Jewish assumption have been accurate in that Jesus was God? So why didn’t he just say he was God after all in the Tanakh God wasn’t exactly shy about declaring himself as such and with great clarity.
This seems to me to establish a tension between the Jewish Unitarian view at the time of Jesus and the Christian claim of the Trinity being taught by the Bible.
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who is “Ben”?
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Jesus did say He was God:
John 8:56-58
John 10:30
John 20:27-30 (Jesus positive response to Thomas’ declaration)
by the phrase “Son of God” ( = same nature as God the Father = homo-ousias – in Nicean Creed) receiving Worship all through all four gospels, he was saying He was God.
like in Matthew 2:1-12
and
Matthew 14:33
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As in Ben Witherington
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well said and thanks for the sensitivity 😉
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Johns Gospel is an unreliable witness due to its infusion of clearly developed theology anachronistically placed onto the lips of Jesus. Son of God of course does not refer to one being God since others are given this title even in Gospel of Luke, Adam is called Son of God is he also God?
In response to your usage of the story of the Magi they do not worship him but rather ‘pay homage’ which does not mean worship but rather to showing respect or reverence. Certain translations do choose to the term worship but since others disagree this is hardly a certainty as well as one that makes little sense considering some of the speculation about who the Magi represent.
BTW why do you assume that worship in this context refers to one of giving reverence to a deity when the term can also mean to address a person of importance which certainly a miracle working Prophet would deserve?
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‘So why didn’t he just say he was God after all in the Tanakh God wasn’t exactly shy about declaring himself as such and with great clarity.’
Nice.
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why did He use the plural – Elohim in the OT for God?
It can also be translated as “gods” and that implies polytheism and that is very bad.
Why the plural for the one true God?
He was not “shy” about that in the OT
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So you understand that the word can be used for both singular and plural forms depending on the subject?
Not both at the same time. One can not be both one and many at the same time as this would tear the law of non contradiction to shreds. And if the term were meant to interpreted as plural when in reference to God why is it always translated as singular?
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Yes, you are making my point. Why did the Hebrew OT even use the plural, Elohim, AT ALL (most of the time) ??
Why not just use the singular El all the way through, in order to emphasize God’s oneness / Monotheism?
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Surely you are asking the wrong person? I’m not the writer of Genesis. However it is important to point out that nobody prior to the second century CE ever believed in a view of the One God of Israel as having a plural unity in his nature as opposed to a Unitarian view.
I’m not the only person who notices this anomaly, Ben Witherington in the initial post makes the point as well as the vast majority of Jewish interpreters of the Bible. You are in the minority here as such the onus is upon you to make the case for the Trinity being taught in the Tanakh and that Jesus believed in such a concept.
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Ok, but you are still not answering why the Hebrew writers use the plural, Elohim? (the literal meaning is “gods”; and that is opposite of Monotheism. Seems kind of weird, don’t you think? it is opposite of Allah, الله , which has a strong, Al-ilah (The God) meaning – implying the only God. It is weird that Elohim is used most often in OT for the God of Israel, and not just El – The God.
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Its also interesting that you cannot prove that the Trinity was believed by any Jewish person prior to the second century CE and why Jesus never taught such a concept but rather prayed to the Father as the only true God.
Trying to argue from ambiguity due to to a Hebrew word used for God in the Tanakh despite the fact that the context of that every time the word is used implies a singular usage? Unless you want to translate the verses as plural ‘Gods’ since that is the only time the term is utilised in a plural setting.
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Bam!
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Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Moses referred to as Elohim in a couple places in the Exodus?
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yes. See Exodus 7:1
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Hi Paul
If the Jews didn’t understand anything in regards to a trinity then why did Moses in writing Genesis say this…
Gen 19:23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
The verse obviously mentions TWO Lords this is a Jewish man called Moses who wrote this, it had nothing to do with Christians.
I’m not saying this is the trinity but I would like your understanding of the text, and maybe Ken can help with some input on this.
My question is why doesn’t just say The Lord rained down brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gormorrah?
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the context of those passages are “You will be AS (or LIKE) Elohim to Pharaoh” – not literally ontologically Elohim, but representing God in confronting Pharaoh with God’s power, miracles and God’s prophetic speak and rebuke, etc.
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It does not say there are two Lords. As the NLT puts it:
‘Lot reached the village just as the sun was rising over the horizon. 24 Then the Lord rained down fire and burning sulfur from the sky on Sodom and Gomorrah.’
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How do you know John is “putting those words on the lips of Jesus”; rather than John is an apostle and eyewitness and writing a truthful and God-inspired gospel?
The whole Gospel is totally reliable, and interestingly, we have better manuscript evidence and oldest for it than we do for Mark, thought to be by most scholars as the earliest written.
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Because no other Gospel writer ascribes such things to him despite the fact that supposedly they were either contemporaries of Jesus or basing their texts on recorded sayings and actions of him. As well as the highly developed theology of the text in comparison to the synoptic Gospels.
Ken i have no problem with the Gospel of John when one understands it for what it is which is coincidentally not a modern day biography but an ancient one which as you know allowed for far greater creative freedom.
Finally what does having an earlier copy of John mean? Unless it is the original i question why it would matter.
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Thanks Ken, Patrice, Paul, Mozer, Father Victor, Mozer G. Jason, Eric etc. That is why I like this blog so much. I learnt a lot from people brainstorming. I know Abrahamic religions or faiths very well through this blog and I thank God for that. Credit goes to Paul Williams and we are all praying for his good health and longer life. Here is better than a biased Jewish, Islamic and Christian sites.
Any one is free to challenge any absurdities and lies and any one is free to defend anything he feels truth about it.
In conclusion, 3 Person 1 God is incorrect and must be rejected by anyone. It is a lie excuse me for my language it is a big lie.
Why?
Every Person/person is a Being. No Person/person can be a Person/person without being a Being. So worshiping 3 Persons/persons is worshiping 3 Beings and it is polytheism and or idolatry.
Similarly 100% God and 100% man at the same time is excuse me wrong and impossibility.
And Mercy and Forgiveness CANCELS Justice and Punishment. Where there is Justice and Punishment at all cost, then they is no Mercy and Forgiveness.
The loving Jesus said he will execute his enemies. Where is the love here? No love and so one cannot be always loving or always has to punish and show justice. Even God sometimes punishes and does not show love to satan and evil doers who to not repent.
If God is love it does not mean he must always show love i.e. to Satan and evil does who do not repent. God does not show love in that instance. Love can be showed or not by God depending on his Majestic discretion. Punishment and Justice or force cannot hinder God’s majestic decision.
Ken, I say Mercy and Forgiveness cancels Justice and Punishment. It is nonsense for someone to slap himself, his son or someone back and claim he has forgiven someone or he has shown mercy to someone.
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
I’m quite sure that in Islamic theology Allah doesn’t have a gender and we are not created in Allah image.
I was wondering how you explain Allah as one when Allah can’t even be explained
For instance you say Allah is one…one what?
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DF you are becoming a troll, and a boring one at that. Do you have a life outside this blog?
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“I say Mercy and Forgiveness cancels Justice and Punishment. It is nonsense for someone to slap himself, his son or someone back and claim he has forgiven someone or he has shown mercy to someone.”
Well said.
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Hi Jason
Read the text in Exodus properly
Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
It’s not saying that Moses is a god…God said he would be “like a god” and the. Aaron as a prophet
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that’s an English translation not the original. Perhaps Eric had shed some light.
Also like your quote in quotation marks: “like a god” – I just can’t see where it says those words.
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Hi Paul
Am I wrong in saying that Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Cyprian all quoted Genesis 19:24 with the same wording that I used.
Are you saying these men are wrong and the NET version has the correct wording? What manuscript is it taken from?
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Dude come on:
your quote in quotation marks: “like a god” – I just can’t see where it says those words.
Where is it from?
I haven’t finished asking you questions.
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With the name of Allah,
Br. Paul W.
//that’s an English translation not the original. Perhaps Eric had shed some light.//
My apology for missing this
The original hebrew in Ex 7:1 itself literally says:
wayo’mer Adonai el-mosheh : God commanded to Moses
re’eh netatyka elohim le-phar’oh :See ! I set you a god to Pharaoh
we aharon achi-kha yihyeh nevi’ekha : and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
So there is no “like God” in the original text.
However one should understand that in the hebrew Bible, the word Elohim אֱלֹהִים is used for many different purposes which is almost always immediately obvious from the context whether a specific instance of the word Elohim is being used as a “Name” for God (this is always treated grammatically as a singular “proper noun”), or as denoting idols or false “gods” (an ordinary plural “common noun”) or the word Elohim is also used the sense of someone with powers like princes, rulers or judges.
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Jason
Moses was called Elohim in the Bible. May be Moses is 3 Persons/persons 1 God according to Ken Temple.
Thanks.
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Intellect,
For reals bro. I don’t really see the point they are trying to make when Elohim is used in references to humans as well as false Gods in the Hebrew Scriptures. Maybe me and you are just really dumb people that don’t have the mental prowess to understand Trinitarian logic? Yeah that’s it….lol
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Hi Intellect
Where did Jesus say he would destroy his enemies?
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defendchrist
You said;
Hi Intellect
Where did Jesus say he would destroy his enemies?
I say;
You cannot defend your Christ on this one.
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.'”
Thanks.
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Intellect,
My bad bro, I meant we don’t have the intelligence to fathom Trinitarian mathematics, you know; 1+1+1=3
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I really am a dummy I meant 1+1+1=1
Go ahead Trinitarians let the jokes rip 🙂
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Jason
They will say we do not have the Holy Spirit in us. Abraham and Moses do not have Holy Spirit like us because they did not teach Trinity, 3 Persons/persons one 1 God, Triune God, God dying, God becoming a man etc. and all that nonsense.
Any Muslim will accept any one who worships the only one God of Abraham as worshiping the Muslim God but Trinitarians are bully and they will not accept those muli-personal God worshipers like Rastafarians of Haile Selaissie, Joseph Smith Mormons, Sai Baba of the Hindus etc.
Trinitarians will insist only their multi-Personal God is God but other Multi-Personal Gods are not God.
Muslims on the other hand will accept Jews, Unitarians Christians and any one who worships the only 1 God of Abraham who is alone as the Muslims God. Jewish God and Unitarians Christians God is Muslim God and any Muslim will accept that. We only have different beliefs but same God. We are not bullies.
How do you know God has not revealed Himself to the Hindus as a Hindu God?
-Dr. Shabbir Ally
Thanks.
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Intellect,
Thank you for that and I’m glad my Muslim brothers/sisters accept us Unitarian Christians (the feeling is mutual) We worship the ONE GOD not the 1+1+1=1 God (Look I didn’t mess up this time on my Trinitarian mathematics). Im glad the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) established Monotheism again! It’s a damn (excuse my French) shame that Monotheism/Unitarianism got perverted in the first place. Gee,I wonder who was responsible for that , cough cough Satan cough cough.
Shalom
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three persons = 3 persons, within ONE GOD in substance / essence / nature
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Hi Paul
Exo 7:1 And the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.
English standard version.
Exo 7:1 The LORD answered Moses, “I have made you a god to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron is your prophet.
Gods word.
Exo 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Revised version.
This may not be to your liking but the revised version does say made thee a god, so,I wasn’t that far off
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But are you saying that God’s Word is the English translation?
Or are you saying God spoke to Moses in English?
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Do you realise that the scriptures/revelations were not given to any of the prophets in English right? This is similar to people who see English translations of the Quran and people thinking there are different Qurans because one Orientalists or translator used a different European word to translate the same Arabic word. A good example “Lord of the day of Judgment” & “Owner of the day of Judgment” or “King of the day of Judgment”. The Arabic is the same but the English can vary depending who translates it. Ultimately the meaning in English is not very far off it does not stop making sense or contradict itself which is a far cry from the English translations of the Greek translations of the Hebrew translations etc..
The core issue is that there seems to be a basic and fundamental lack of understanding about the fact that the English is translated from the Greek which was translated from the Hebrew and there are centuries between all of them. So you have mistranslations and mistakes like the words Adoni & Adonai which mean a lord or someone of high standing and THE creator all mighty God respectively.
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Father Victor
Thanks for your reply. You tried to help me with the old prophets not knowing Trinity and therefore worshiping an incomplete God. Your reply as about knowing someone who is a Doctor, Father, husband etc. and he is fair, white etc.
He is ther same Person/person/being witth different attributes. That is not what I am asking because we have that in Islam too. Allah is only,one divine being who is alone with different attributes i.e. Merciful, gracious, compassionate, sustainer etc.
Each of these attributes is not a person/being by itself and it does not have consciousness and will by itself. They are just characteristics.
It is different from Trinity which states 3 Persons/beings 1 God that the old Prophets did not know but knew God is 1, only and alone and it deals with 1 being/person of God.
There is another Person or persons added to the Trinitarian God that makes it different from the God of the old prophets and so my question is not answered properly. Anyway thanks for the reply.
Thanks.
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Thanks Intellect. Let me try one more shot at it.
I think some people look at Christianity and conceptualize God the Father as the sole Divine Person in the Old Testament, with the Son and the Holy Spirit only showing up in the New Testament. However, it the Trinity is true, then it has always been true, and the three Persons (of the same Divine Essence the prophets praised) have been active in the affairs of mankind throughout Salvation History.
Christians reflect back on the Jewish Scriptures and see the Persons of the Trinity at work together. For instance, our Nicene Creed professes that the Holy Spirit has “spoken through the prophets.” Or take the theophanies where a “messenger” speaks in the divine first-person (e.g., Genesis 22:12, Judges 6:16 & 13:21-22)
I would say that Abraham and the prophets experienced the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit in various times and manners in their day. Their encounters with God were Trinitarian even if they did not fully grasp it at the time. I believe the same is true for all people today.
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Intellect/Paul/Eric and every other sincere seeker who post on this blog.
We will probably never meet face to face but God willing we will meet in Paradise.
Peace and blessings to all
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Amen O God the most High, God willing we will.
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@ poitierfrance
You said: “Why would it not make sense? let’s suppose the trinity was established in the beginning. Does trinity by nature presuppose incarnation so that it could not have been stated before the incarnation of Christ?”
I reply:
I guess it would be like learning the knowledge of God completely by theory in the abstract instead of through the life of Christ or the history of God’s dealings with mankind. I suppose God could just as well have written a book of systematic theology and given it to Adam. Then we wouldn’t need a bible but neither would we need the Koran?
Trinity by itself does not presuppose incarnation but most of the revealing of it was, in the wisdom of God, done through the relationship between the Father and the Son, the incarnated Word. Who am I to question God’s wisdom or his will?
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Progressive revelation means that we form our concept of him and worship him with all the knowledge that mankind has been given up to the time that we are living.
We worship the same God that Abraham or Adam did although they had less knowledge of him than we do.
Was Abraham or Adam a trinitarian as I am? Hardly likely. Did God expect them to be? Hardly likely. Does that make my faith wrong as a trinitarian? Not at all.
Did Job believe that his redeemer was divine and human? Perhaps he did. Who can prove he didn’t?
King James Bible Job 19 v 25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
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Erasmus/Madmanna
You said;
We worship the same God that Abraham or Adam did although they had less knowledge of him than we do.
I say;
Prophet Abraham has less knowledge of God than you? Are you smoking wee? or Hashish? or Ganja? What do you mean? A prophet of God who is the Father of monotheism and you are saying you or Christians know God more than him. You are indeed smoking weed.
You said;
Was Abraham or Adam a trinitarian as I am? Hardly likely. Did God expect them to be? Hardly likely. Does that make my faith wrong as a trinitarian? Not at all.
I say;
Abraham and Adam know nothing about 3 Persons/persons 1 God, God dying, 100% God 100% man, Triune etc. so your God is different from their God. Your faith is wrong as a Trinitarian.
You said;
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth
I say;
This statement does not mean God is a man at all, unless a Trinitarian want to spin it.
You said;
Progressive revelation means that we form our concept of him and worship him with all the knowledge that mankind has been given up to the time that we are living.
I say;
The concept of God as one, only and alone is not progressive. When a Person is added to the One God it changes the God of Abraham, Moses, Adam, Jesus and all the prophets of God.
Thanks.
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Father Victor
Once again thank you. You are indeed a good clergy man and God bless you. But when searching for truth we will ask all questions, brainstorm and come out with the truth.
You said;
I would say that Abraham and the prophets experienced the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit in various times and manners in their day. Their encounters with God were Trinitarian even if they did not fully grasp it at the time. I believe the same is true for all people today.
I say;
If they experience Trinity without knowing it, and God telling them different thing i.e. the opposite of Trinity, then God lied to them, may God forbid. God does not lie to His Prophets and people who believed him.
Proof: This addressed to the old Prophets are opposite of Trinity.
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
3.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
4.”Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
5.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
1.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
6.”You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
7.”For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
8.”Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
1.”You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
Father, If they feel Trinity, the above will make the feelings a big lie. It is totally and completely not 3 Persons 1 God, God dying, God becoming man. NOTHING, NOTHING AND NO ONE IS YAHWEY. Yahweh is God and no one else. Jesus is someone else and so he is not Yahweh who said He is the Only God and Alone. That is not Trinity. I do not think the old prophets experienced Trinity because the above clear message from God will prevent them from experiencing Trinity.
Thanks
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You are very kind with your compliments and generous with your researched response.
Christians do not see conflict in the verses you cite because we do not believe the Holy Trinity to be three gods. The Trinity is revealed through Jesus Christ, who in the Gospels claims divine authority, claims a unique oneness with God his Father, and yet prays to Him as to another person. God’s monotheism was a firmly established (against Zeus, Jupiter, Baal, and the rest) but Jesus’ words and deeds revealed a previously unknown reality contained within the one true God.
I understand that Muslims do not accept the Gospels as accurately portraying Jesus. Christians believe the same thing about the Koran’s portrayal of Jesus. Non-Christians argue that the Trinity makes no sense, as if it were simply the mathematical claim that three equals one, and that the omnipotence of God makes him incapable of condescension through Incarnation. But should we expect the nature and abilities of God would be intuitive or mysterious?
It comes down to this: I am a Christian because it is so surpassingly beautiful and knowably good.
To love everyone, friend, neighbor, and enemy.
To receive the gift of God’s very self in Holy Communion.
To be loved as God’s adopted sons and daughters, more than servant/slaves.
To see the Old Testament prophecies and promises so unexpectedly fulfilled in Jesus.
That conversion would be free from coercion, because love cannot be forced.
That holy marriage makes present the mystery of Christ’s love for the Church.
That we are made in God’s image not only in intellect and will, but in our communion of persons.
That goodness is a reflection of God’s unchanging nature, not an unbridled will that could declare evil good.
That the Problem of Evil (God’s good & mighty, but there’s evil) though not resolved, is answered by a God who suffers and dies like us, for us.
With reverence to you as a lover of God and every good and true thing that you love, I do not see what teachings Muhammad brought which were an improvement over Judaism and Christianity. Perhaps he improved upon what Arabia had inherited, but I know of no truly innovative ideas Islam introduced to the world beyond “Muhammad is God’s prophet.” Maybe you could offer what you can see.
Sorry to end on that down-note, but I wish to come to the heart of the matter: which revelation sings most beautifully to the human minds & hearts God has created for union with Himself? I will await your reply (no rush.)
Thank you, and God bless you.
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Father Victor
You said;
Sorry to end on that down-note, but I wish to come to the heart of the matter: which revelation sings most beautifully to the human minds & hearts God has created for union with Himself? I will await your reply (no rush.)
I say;
I have a Muslims brother here who is called Faiz. He always accuse Ken Temple, a Trinitarian for appealing to emotions rather truth, reality, logicality, correctness, rationality and revelation to know who God said He is.
My dear Father/Clergy man, we are talking about the old prophets not knowing your God who is 3 persons in 1. You applied their experience/emotions and the verses I provided from the Bible not from Quran proved their experience/feelings/emotions cannot be a Trinity God but a Unitarian God. The verses are clear from the Bible. No single 3 Persons/persons 1 God, God dying, God-Man, God became man etc. from the whole Bible.
Sikhs and Sikhism is the religion that sings most beautifully to human minds and hearts together with other idol worshiping religion. Does that make them true? The Sikh religion is about peace and union with God but they have lot of idols. Does that make their religion true?
You said;
Christians do not see conflict in the verses you cite because we do not believe the Holy Trinity to be three gods. The Trinity is revealed through Jesus Christ, who in the Gospels claims divine authority, claims a unique oneness with God his Father, and yet prays to Him as to another person. God’s monotheism was a firmly established (against Zeus, Jupiter, Baal, and the rest) but Jesus’ words and deeds revealed a previously unknown reality contained within the one true God.
I say;
So the old prophets like Abraham, Moses and the rest had unknown reality about God? You and Christians really know God than prophet Abraham? That is where Trinitarian Christians are wrong. How can you say you know God more than Abraham?
My question comes back. So Prophet Abraham and all prophets of God are worshiping a God who is not real than the Trinitarian God is is uncomplete than a Trinitarian God? You seem to say yes. How can a prophet of God who received messages from God had his God less or not real like a Trinitarian God?
My dear Father, the God of Abraham is the same God today. Any religion that says He is not real like what you are saying is not a religion from God, I am afraid.
I cannot speak hash words to you but I do to other Christians who insults the God of Abraham and claim their God is more real than the God of Abraham, because they claim Abraham did not know the reality of God or had no complete knowledge of God.
Prophet Abraham had complete knowledge of God than anyone. Anyone and any religion that claims Abraham had no complete knowledge of God is in big error and had to pray hard to come out from Satan.
You said;
I understand that Muslims do not accept the Gospels as accurately portraying Jesus. Christians believe the same thing about the Koran’s portrayal of Jesus. Non-Christians argue that the Trinity makes no sense, as if it were simply the mathematical claim that three equals one, and that the omnipotence of God makes him incapable of condescension through Incarnation. But should we expect the nature and abilities of God would be intuitive or mysterious?
It comes down to this: I am a Christian because it is so surpassingly beautiful and knowably good.
To love everyone, friend, neighbor, and enemy
I say;
Most religion including Islam preach love like Christianity if you study it well and the same religions also sometimes deal hashly to its enemies like Jesus ransacking tables and destroying properties with disorderly conduct that could put him to jail today. He called woman a dog because of his hate and anger towards her.
All these were done when he(Jesus) had no power and under Roman control. When he comes back and get power he will show no love and Mercy i.e.
Luke 19:27
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’
Whether it is parable or not, it involves killing enemies and it is no love and mercy for them. So the love, love, peace, peace of Christianity is wrong.
Islam had brought love and peace to follow it. Some Muslims do not follow the message of Islam as some Jews or Christians will not follow their religion. They are the trouble causers and not the religions. Islam saved Jews and many oppressed and lived in peace, love and harmony with them. Christians could not tolerate anyone and killed Jews and Muslims and Christians themselves from Arians, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, slaves etc. until freedom or religion was forced on them(Christians)
Thanks.
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Hi. Intellect
You said this…
New International Version
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
Can you not tell the difference between a parable and real life.
Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Verse 24 who is the person speaking in the parable? And he said unto them…is this Jesus or the nobleman.
This parable obviously has a deeper meaning and maybe you don’t understand.
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defendchrist
You are very poor in defending Christ. Whether parable or not, Jesus KILLS HIS ENEMIES. No love here from Jesus. So Jesus does not always show love. Anyone who says Jesus always shows love is a liar I am afraid.
Thanks.
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Very true intellect!
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Hi Intellect
I am very capable of taking you on, I did say there was a deeper meaning to the parable, you try to give the impression that Jesus is some sort of tyrant and unjust.
The same God that judged Sodom and Gormorah is the same one that judged the Amalakites. The same God that judged and destroyed the people in the flood is the same God that will judge you in the last day according to the parable.
I see that Ken that quite clear in his response.
You preach a false message according to your understanding of love we should free all the murderers and rapist in the world and forgive them.
Yet what do we do with all the victims of the crime and those family members left behind. Where is the justice?
I love my kids but I also discipline them…God will judge sin
Jesus died for the sins of humanity if that’s not good enough for you then you will pay the price yourself.
Making clever comments doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
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The parable in Luke 19, and the verse you guys bring up a lot, Luke 19:27-
“But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.”
This is about the end / Judgment day, after Jesus returns (which Islam believes in), as in Revelation 19:11 – “He wages righteous just and righteous war”
God the Father and the Son are Sovereign and will send all unbelievers to hell when Jesus the Son returns. It is a symbol of when Jesus judges and sends unbelievers to hell.
Revelation 14:10
“They will suffer in hell for all eternity, tormented with fire and brimstone under the wrath of God, in the presence of the Lamb (the Son, Jesus the Messiah) and the holy angels.”
Hell is real and for eternity, which Islam also believes in. There is no second chance.
So that verse is not a problem at all. It is justice at the end of time. God’s holy and righteous judgment for rejecting the Messiah, the Son, the Redeemer who died on the cross for sinners from all the nations. (Revelation 5:9; 7:9) Those that don’t repent and trust Christ to save them, yes, they will go to hell forever and suffer under God’s holy wrath.
But until Jesus returns, you have opportunity to repent and believe in Him and find peace and eternal life. (True Love in the true God.)
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who refuses to be persuaded (to follow/ believe) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:36
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance,
God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Acts 17:30-31
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Ken
You said;
This is about the end / Judgment day, after Jesus returns (which Islam believes in), as in Revelation 19:11 – “He wages righteous just and righteous war”
I say;
If you live a glass house do not trow stones. When Prophet Mohammed fought war, you call it atrocities but when Jesus fought war you call it war of justice. You “dandyhead”.
You said;I
God the Father and the Son are Sovereign and will send all unbelievers to hell when Jesus the Son returns. It is a symbol of when Jesus judges and sends unbelievers to hell.
Revelation 14:10
I say;
If Jesus loves his enemies, why should he send his enemies to hell? i.e. burning fire.
It is a lie to say Jesus loves his enemies. Big Big lie from any one who says Jesus loves his enemies.
Thanks.
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Well said Intellect
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It is not a lie because Christ first came and died for rebel enemies on the cross (First coming, incarnation) and now is still patient and loving until the day of judgment.
2 Peter 3:9 – “the Lord is . . . patient, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.”
Romans 5:6-9 – Christ died for us sinners on the cross, even when we were enemies, etc. Jesus loves His enemies now and is patient and drawing followers from all the nations until the day of judgment. Only at the second coming will He make war.
But when He returns He will pour out justice.
Muhammad’s wars were unjust human wars and aggressive wars – examples for Omar and other Caliphs to do aggressive unjust wars against the Persians and Byzantines and they had no right to do those wars. They were unjust and wrong.
so there is a big difference. Your religion says “fight unbelievers NOW until they submit” (Surah 9:5; 9:29; 8:39; many Hadith); but Christianity says love your enemies NOW and pray for them and reach out in evangelism and love and patience, and the NT NEVER gives permission for the Church to make war; but your religion commands it since Mohammad and Omar and even until judgement day.
Our religion is only when Christ returns and He does the just war, not us humans. Yours is your human prophet now making war and history of Caliphs, etc. and they were unjust.
Big difference.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Our religion is only when Christ returns and He does the just war, not us humans. Yours is your human prophet now making war and history of Caliphs, etc. and they were unjust.
Big difference.
I say;
Jesus Christ is indeed a human being. He goes to toilet and eats food. He is a human being. You agree he is 100% human being. No difference.
Christians fought war and killed their enemies and they were forced with freedom of religion but now supporting Donald Trump to kill or torture anyone they(Christians) will not like even though he is not a serious Christian.
Thanks.
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Ken would you care to tell us why Umar was wrong for invading the Byzantines in Syria especially as the people there (including the Syriac Orthodox Church) supported them and even contributed to his cause via paying the Jizya.
The same Byzantines who were persecuting other groups of Christians for the crime of rejecting the Council of Chalcedon?
Finally would also be kind enough when quoting several portions of Surah 9 to also point out both the context with the surrounding verses as well as the historical context? Such as for example that 9:5 is referring to the Pagan Arabs who broke a peace treaty and had therefore proven not only that they would not live in peace with the Muslims (who they had been at war with for the last 9 years) but that they wanted to destroy them?
And that 9:28 the verse right before it shows that it is once again addressing the Pagan Arabs as well those Jews and Christians who were supporting them? This all being in the context of a war that has been finished for the last 1400 years or so.
So therefore selectively choosing which texts to misquote and place next to certain texts in your scripture to make yours look better is not only not going to impress anyone who has actually picked up the Qur’an and read it while also making your own religion look bad for its representatives need to exercise such tactics in the first place. Remember Ken the Bible teaches that it is a grave sin to bear false witness.
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Patrice,
I disagree with your interpretation of the wars of Islam. Here is a different viewpoint. Surah 9:28-29 was applied much more than only to a specific one little battle, etc. The Islamic commentators (see the ones quotes below) show that those verses were the motivation for the whole attacks by Omar and beyond. It was unjust and wrong.
In order to understand Dhimmi ذمّی and Dhimmitude in Islam, one has to get the larger context than just Hamza Yusuf’s short statement. One should read all of the links to the articles below to understand Dhimmi and Dhimmitude. It developed from Surah 9:28-29 and from the Pact of Umar I (Umar/Omar Ibn Al Kattab, the Second Caliph, 634-644 AD) and was further developed under another Umar/Omar – Umar Ibn Abdul Azziz, who was Caliph from 717-720 AD.)
Overall, if one reads all the information here, and the links to other articles, it shows the problem with modern Muslims claiming that that the attacks on the Byzantine and Persian Empires from 634 AD onward to 732 (battle of Tours and Charles Martel stopping the Muslims in Europe) and beyond all the way to 1453 and the conquering of Constantinople, are false claims for saying they were seeking to free the Copts and other Monophysites and Nestorians from the tryanny of the Byzantine and Persian Empires. It is true that at the beginning, from some exant sources, the Monophysite Copts and Syrians said that they welcomed the Arab Muslims as liberators from their Byzantine oppressors. (policies from Justinian (Emperor from 527-565 AD) and Heraclius (Emperor from 610-641 AD – at time of Muhammad) who both tried to unify the Monophysite groups to unity with the Chalcedonian Creed of 451 AD.) However, according to the Qur’an and Hadiths, that was not Muhammad nor the Caliphs motivations. They wanted to spread Islam, as David Wood points out, Surah 9:29 does not say, “fight the people of the book because they oppress each other” (Byzantines/Chalcedonian Creed vs. Monophysite Copts, Jacobite Syrians and Armenians; and Nestorians vs. Zoroastrian Persia). It says “fight them because of their beliefs and practices” and verse 28 and 29 indicates that Allah will make them rich by the jiziye tax that they will get from the Christians and Jews. So the attacks of Umar Ibn Al Kattab and the Jihads of the Muslims after that were all unjust. Later, the Copts and Syrians and other minorities could not complain because of fear of persecution and violence, and it was too late. As one Coptic Christian Evangelical said to me, “The Muslims decieved my people at the beginning; for later it became worse.” The minority Christians slowly converted to Islam over the centuries because of the economic and social pressures of being “Dhimmi” – really, it amounted to being a second class citizen.
What is really interesting is verse 28 – “if you fear poverty, soon Allah will enrich you”. the reason for that was because Muhammad had conquered the Hijaz (the Arabian peninsula, especially around Mecca and Medina, and no pagans or idol worshippers were allowed. That means the Muslims could not get tax or penalty money from the pagans. Surah 9:5 – “fight the unbelievers where ever you find them”, proves this, and several Hadith that says “no two religions will be allowed on the Arabian peninsula” see Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288, and other Hadiths, quoted at the bottom of this article *) They were all killed or driven out or converted to Islam. So now, there is no revenue from the pilgrimmages, so, according to verses 28-29, they will allow the Christians and Jews to be in the Islamic state, provided they surrender and don’t fight/resist, and pay the Jiziye with humiliation, and they cannot evangelize or build new churches or even criticize Islam.
Qur’an 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4— “Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.”
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—”Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.”
see here for the fuller picture of all that.
https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/dhimmi-%D8%B0%D9%85%D9%91%DB%8C-in-islam/
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Ken i never said what Umars’ purpose was only that this was the reaction from those who lived their (the opinion that matters most in this case) in order that it may challenge you to cease in presenting what is a simplistic take on an historical event in order to bolster your own faith position.
I am glad however that you acknowledge (when pressed) that they were welcomed as liberators according to historical sources about that time therefore i have for the life of me no idea why you are referring to a clearly biased and scholarly source such as that of David Wood to back up your argument as opposed to actual experts in the field. Secondly where does the verse you quote state “fight them for their beliefs and practices”? Once again one should not simply quote a few isolated statements without considering the proper context. Doing so would answer your confusion rather clearly. Remember what I said about it being in regards to the breaking of a treaty and this command including those non Pagan Arabs who were supporting them?
On a final note Ken how do you respond to the context of Surah 9:5 which also states that those who wish to continue to honor the treaty can and will not be harmed and that those who wished to seek protection with Muhammad could and that there is no mention of them being required to convert? So much for those murderous Muslims….
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Hi Intellect
Surely your Allah is bigger than Trump and maybe he is one of the poor souls that Allah has purposely led astray.
It’s quite funny listening to Muslims complain about how the west is corrupt and yet Muslims are going there.
You have a Muslim country that will not allow anyone other than Muslims in the city, is that any different from what Trump want Some?
Maybe they should think about living in Saudi Arabia in Mecca where as far as I know as a Christian I can’t enter the city…what’s that all about?
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We have no way to trust that they actually were not harmed, since later Omar killed everyone and expelled everyone except Muslims from Arabia, based on the Hadith that says “no two religions will be allowed in Arabia”. Eventually, when the Muslims got the political and military power, they got rid of everybody who resisted. The Jiziye and Dhimmi principles were oppressive and forced on those weak Christians who were left, and they could not do any evangelism nor could they build new churches. It is a lie to say that Islam lets Christians practice their religion, since part of their religion is to share our faith, in the way I am doing here, in defending the bible and explaining it. There are some statements in history by the Monophysites that they “welcomed the Arab Muslims as liberators”; but the winners of the wars right the history and they just killed off most every one else and those that submitted, were worn down over centuries, so that today, there are very few Christians left in these areas. The Jiziye and Dhimmi system forced them to convert in order to avoid being humiliated and having to pay extra taxes and not being able to have full rights in society. It was a very effective but unjust system of wearing them down and forcing them to convert. It was too late to resist after the initial conquering. They even admit that Islam deceived them, since the Muslims never left their areas nor gave them freedom, but they took over and became the rulers.
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Ken if you are referring to the Arabian peninsula no longer having anyone other than Muslims living in it or that Omar killed them all (non-Muslims) rather a suspect point don’t you think? Also very few Christians left in these places???
4 million in Egypt (estimated) according to the pew research centre?
http://www.pewresearch.org/2011/02/16/how-many-christians-are-there-in-egypt/
10% in Syria (Before the civil war of course).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Syria#Integration
Amazing however that you managed to track down an Evangelical Egyptian considering Omar was supposed to have killed them all. What was he in, cryogenic stasis 😉
BTW do you have evidence that the historical sources of the time describing the Muslims as heroes should be doubted other than your personal distaste?
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You are mixing up areas, etc. Omar expelled them out of Arabia, and then later did the Jizie on other areas. Slow Dhimmi process of centuries of wearing everyone down to small ingrown communities. I didn’t track down someone; he freely told me that after I met him years ago and we had a discussion about the historical issues. 4 million left in Egypt is small compared to what it was when Islam unjustly attacked in the 600s.
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most Christians had freely converted by the superior appeal of Tawheed over trinitarian muddle
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no way; they converted over to Islam because they had become nominal (not truly born again) and then because of the economic and social pressure of being Dhimmis in the oppressive and unjust Dhimmmi and Jiziye system. The Copts survived longer because they had a strong doctrine of the Deity of Christ and the Trinity; but the others put social and economic pressure before their faith, because there was no faith left. True faith perseveres. Anyone who converts to Islam proves they are never really born again. (2 Peter 2:22; I John 2:19; Matthew 7:21-23) The Trinity and the balance of Truth and Love, Justice and Mercy, Wrath against sin and love for sinners; is much superior to the Monad-Dictator who can lie if he wants to (Surah 3:54; 8:30; 10:22) The Bible verses about “God deceiving” (as in 2 Thess. 2:11; 1 Kings 22:19-23) are about God allowing others to deceive (evil spirits or humans), but in those Qur’anic verses, Allah Himself does the deception (مکر = Makr) Himself.
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“Anyone who converts to Islam proves they are never really born again”
a convenient doctrine. I was such a Christian and I converted to Islam. Many others have too.
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It says it right there in Matthew 7:23 – “I never knew you” and 2 Peter 2:21 – “like the proverb, a dog returns to his vomit and a pig returns to wallowing in the mud” = meaning your nature was never changed. It is not saying you are a dog or a pig, but it saying a person who turns away, after knowing the truth of Christ intellectually shows that their nature was never was changed. Also 1 John 2:19 – “they left us because they were never one of us, never truly of us.” ( never truly a Christian with the Holy Spirit living in them)
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My nature was certainly changed. And I still follow Jesus. But you sadly blaspheme God by worshiping his messiah who denied he was God in Mark 10.
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No, your nature was not changed when you became a Christian. You don’t even believe there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit now. You cannot explain it in true Christian, Biblical terms. It was just some kind of emotional and religious experience. otherwise you would not have gone to Islam. You don’t follow the true Jesus.
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lol of course my nature was changed. You know nothing about me at that time to make such presumptive judgements. Of course I believed in the holy spirit too. I was a born-again Trinitarian.
I follow the the Jesus now. I pray you will too one day.
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You may have believed that intellectually at the time, but since you converted to Islam, you don’t believe there is such a thing as the Trinity or the 3rd person – the Holy Spirit, nor the 2nd person of the Trinity – the Son – at the time you claim to have believed in Jesus as the eternal Son of God / Word who became flesh, etc. but since you reject all of that, it could not have been the Holy Spirit who did a work in your heart, unless you are now claiming that somehow Allah works on the inside of a person at the same time the mind of that person is confessing Christian Trinitarian doctrine, which does not make sense. You can be aspousing Skirk in your mind, yet somehow Allah of Islam is changing your nature – Islam does not even have a theology of having a heart change or regeneration or being born again. Islam is just a human-oriented start to confess the Shahada and do the rituals and works and maybe, Inshallah, Allah will accept you. But even if you keep all the works and do the rituals, Allah can send you to hell fire if he wants to in the end of your life; as Al Ghazzali wrote and also Abdullah Kunde quoted in his debate with Samuel Green. Which I asked for the reference but no one has ever given it to me.
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Ken you say that the numbers of Christians in Egypt today 4 million is small in comparison to the 7th century. Do you by chance know what the total population was back then in order to make such a comparison? Besides weren’t the Coptic Church not being persecuted at this time by the Byzantines for the same reasons the Syrians were? Once again i ask you to answer why if the Muslims were so bad that the people supported them who were an occupying force!
Your the one who said initially that Omar killed them all now you are saying they were all expelled from Arabia. But you still haven’t addressed the obvious which is that they are still there and there is no reason to think they ever left in some mass exodus. Now you seek to overcome your obvious blunder by giving me some conspiracy theory of “creeping Sharia”!
I honestly thought you were better than this Ken. The truth as i have demonstrated is that Islamic history and scripture is not this blood soaked monstrosity that you have been trying to make it out to be and i have also pointed out the numerous errors on your part. You argued that Surah 9 taught the wholesale slaughter of non-Muslims:
1. The context disproves this claim.
2. The same texts point out a desire for people who wished peace to have it without coercion or forced conversion.
3. The Arabian Peninsula was not as you tried to make out destroyed of non-Muslims but rather these communities very much still exist and have done for 1400 years.
With all this laid out i have only one thing to say to you:
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BAM BAM!!
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not hardly a bam at all.
Percentage wise; compared to today. 4 million out of 82 million is what?
.o48 percent.
so I am the one with the “bam, bam” winning argument.
They were 100 % Christian when Islam attacked and slowly worn down over the centuries by injustice and oppression.
no; there have been no Christians in Arabia since Omar expelled and / or killed them. the Najran community in Yemen, the Monophysite Ghassanids and the Nestorian Lakhimids were expelled and then later they dwindled and absorbed into Islam. Like the “Borg” on Star Trek Next generation.
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Ken your “bam bam” lacks the force necessary to win the day as you have demonstrated a contradiction most foul!
If according to your theology a true Christian is one who perseveres until their death wouldn’t that reveal that they were not true Christians at all? You keep saying that are no Christians in Arabia, for the sake of clarification do you mean Arabia as in Saudi or the Arabian peninsula as a whole?
If the latter your wrong as i demonstrated, if the former then your right and wrong as while Christians do live and work in Saudi there are severe restrictions to their rights to practice their faith and Saudi Christians are not allowed to practice openly.
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No; True Christianity did not do any wars for the first 400 + years.
Muhammad and the Muslims did wars from Medina (622 AD) ONWARD constantly.
Big difference.
Jesus is both God and Man, and now He is glorified in heaven. A glorified body has none of the limitations that He had before the resurrection.
_______
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Ken Temple
Jesus never said he is God. Do not bring what someone thinks. Let it come from the horses own mouth like Yahweh saying “I am the only God” and Jesus saying “the only true God” is not Jesus but Jesus was sent.
Jesus is not God. He is 100% man. I do not see any God in Jesus because James White said Jesus did walk glowing in Jerusalem. He is a man. Emperor Haile Selassie could be a God according to you multi personal God support and many God men are our there.
How do you know God did not reveal Himself to a Hindu as Hindu God at a particular time?
-Dr. Shabbir Ally
You said;
No; True Christianity did not do any wars for the first 400 + years
I say;
Jesus as a true Christian said his enemies has to be killed and Christians fought wars by killing Arians in the first century and subsequently killing their enemies till today. We are lucky they Christians got beaten and freedom of religion forced on them.
They want to elect someone like Trump who will ban all Muslims because they consider Muslims as their enemies, round people in mosques and torture them like how the Christian ancestors persecute others including themselves.
Every government including Bush/Obama and Hillary Clinton to fight gangs and I do not see what Trump will do different except to use his business tools to lie for his presidency. Obama is one of the US presidents that deported more illegal immigrants. He deported more illegal immigrants than Bush. He helped the Mexican government to fight drug dealers and the most notorious drug dealer El Cheapo was caught and he escaped and the US helped the Mexicans to catch him and his gang is in disarray. El Cheapo son was kidnapped by others. Obama is fighting terrorism more than president Bush etc.
Donald Trump is telling evangelicals he is coming to completely deal hashly WITH ALL MUSLIMS and that is what Christians like and is evil for a Christian to like so. Any way Jesus said his enemies must be killed and that is not love.
Thanks.
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Islam early wars were more of liberation than like occupation type of western christian did during colonialism period.
Syriac christians expert Dr. Michael Penn wrote that syriacs sources give suggestion that early christians encounters with early muslims have more positive christian depiction of Islam than of most western sources.
So Islam early war did help christian of middle east to grow against greek and latin christians.
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No; it was not liberation, really, since the Muslims stayed and became the rulers and forced submission by oppression, Jiziye, and Dhimmitude and wore down the Christians over many centuries; many fled and many converted to Islam to get out of the Jiziye and Dhimmitude oppressions; and now just a few left, sadly. Islam allows no freedom to evangelize or disagree with Islam and any criticism is punished constantly. A very effective but unjust system.
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The expansion was North and east along the silk road, not in the Muslim world. Later the Mongols destroyed ALL of that expansion. The oppression of Islam forced their expansion north and east. There was no expansion in the Muslim world. Islam then later get rid of the Mongols in Central Asia and all were forced to become Muslims or killed.
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I have that book and the next sentence proves me right – the expansion was in the North along silk road in N. Iran, Afghanistan into Turkmenistan, Takijistan, Kirgistan, and into China. Mongols later wiped all these churches out and then later Islam fought the Mongols and drove them out or killed or converted them. Result are the Muslim areas of Central Asia – Kazakhistan, Kirgistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekiston, Afghanistan, Muslim parts of India and western China, etc.
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Bismillah
No. Islam early wars were more like a liberation than occupation. Islam liberated eastern (syriac) churches from western (latin) church, under Islam they flourished.
I am sorry but you are a lie. I dont think you have penn book, there is nothing in Penn book has those words you wrote. You make things up.
The main thrust of Dr. Michael Penn is that syriacs sources give suggestion that early christians encounters with early muslims have more positive christian depiction of Islam than western clash of civilisation proponent and Islamophobe like you want it to portray.
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nope; I have the book; but I need to keep reading more of it; I am not lying; the next sentence is clear about what direction the Assyrian Church (Nestorian, or church of the east) went – along silk road in N. Iraq, Northern Iran, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Kirgistan, and into China.
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Prove you right on what?
The sentences is clear, Penn wrote: “UNDER ISLAM , Syriac churches STRETCHED throughout the Middle East through Iran, Afganistan, and Turkestan into India, Tibet and China.”
On the contrary to your baseless assertion, expert said Islam early wars helped christian of middle east TO GROW rather oppressing it.
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they were going the opposite direction of Islam’s attacks. The expanded North and east away from Islam and Arabia.
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Lets do it slow, this is basic reading comprehension and I am assuming you are native English speaker
Michael P. Penn wrote:
“UNDER MUSLIMS RULE, syriac churches EXPANDED to form the most geographically extensive branch of Christianity the late ancient and early medieval world had ever seen..”
“UNDER ISLAM , Syriac churches STRETCHED throughout the Middle East through Iran, Afganistan, and Turkestan into India, Tibet and China.”
You just forged Michael Penn words. There is no such a thing as “Syriac churches were growing the opposite direction of Islam’s attacks” in his sentences.
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I am not claiming I am quoting from him, I am saying that is the meaning and it is well documented that the expansion of the Syriac-Assyrian (Nestorian) missions was North and east along the silk road into China. There were already in Mesopotamia (Today’s Iraq) before Islam attacked. They expanded north and east. They did not expand west or south into Arabia, etc.
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Scroll up, you claim something and now you denied it what a character. if anything it proves you wrong because the book said nothing “right” about your claim.
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No; I never claimed what you are trying to impute to me. Your method of argumentation is not fair. Anyone can look at the history of the expansion of the Assyrian Church of the east (Nestorian, Syriac) and they did expand yes, to the North and east to China. They were already there in Mesopotamia (Iraq) before Islam came and attacked.
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Eric/Ken
Christians are in Arabia right now and Jews are In Arabia and Iran right now until Israel did bribe some of the Jews to locate to Israel. Some Jews are not happy with Israel uprooting Jewish communities in other places to Israel.
Ken is jealous about the Christian conversion to Islam and keep lying that it is economic and Jizya reason. Some Jews and Christians will tell you that they were rich then and rich now than Muslims under Muslim rule. He forgot there are poor Muslims in the Muslim majority countries and rich Jews and Christians in Muslim majority countries for centuries.
No force conversion because Christians and Jews are still in Arabia and other Muslim majority lands from centuries till today. Ken does not understand FORCE conversion and that means no Christian or Jew will survive from centuries upon centuries till today.
Thanks.
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There are some Christians working in Saudi Arabia, but they are not allowed to witness to Saudi nationals and are not allowed to have church meetings. they are guest workers and not citizens and are separated from the Saudis in their own closed off housing developments. (Indians, Filipinos, Koreans, Palestinians, Iraqis, workers from other countries, etc.)
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Throwing the issue of Donald Trump into the mix shows how uniformed you are.
Only some Christians support Donald Trump. (It was sad; and stupid. There were many other better candidates out of 17 of the Republicans in the primary. )
Many do not right now and did not in the primary. There is a big movement against Trump by many other Repulicans and many Christians also. You need to realize that only some Christians voted for him. They see Hillary as worse, since she will nominate Supreme Court justices who will continue to support abortions of babies in the womb (murder) and continue Leftist-“progressive” program of big government tax and spend and create more and more welfare state problems, thus destroying the good aspects of free market capitalism and historic traditional values. Hillary and the Left will continue their policy of the homosexual agenda and transgender agenda.
Others who are not Christians voted for Trump also. Many who support Trump, are poor and middle class white people who have lost factory jobs because the Democrats favors illegal immigrants who have taken jobs and overloaded the welfare system. SOME illegal foreigners are criminals, gangers, drug smugglers, and killing innocent people, even after being deported 5 times. (like the guy who killed Kathryn Steinle).
Most of those that voted for Trump are not Christians, but they are the average nominal cultural “Christian” Americans who are angry at the corruption political system of the Leftist secularism-(including the homosexual-transgender agenda) and -Marxist-socialist-big government tax and spend Democrat party system that has favored illegal immigration and thugs and violent protesters, etc.
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And Paul Williams has also put up a couple of very good posts on the horrors of abortion. That was good. Conservatives (both Christians and those who are not really Christians) in USA, will vote against those who are for abortion, which is murder, which is one of the main agendas that Democrats (Obama, Hillary Clinton) are for, along with homosexuality and transgenders and big government tax and spend and destroy the good of free market capitalism and historic Christian moral values.
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Hi Paul
Where did I say to you the manuscripts of old were all in English. I think I remember saying to you to quote from a manuscript the verse 24 of Genesis 19 which was dealing with the two Lords.
You said the NET translation of the bible only has one Lord, and I asked you what manuscript of the OT has only the one Lord.
Then Yähwè יָהוֶהº rainedºº uponº Sæðöm סְדֹםº and uponº `Ámörà עֲמֹרָהº brimstoneº and fireº fromºº Yähwè יָהוֶהº out ofº heaven;º
Brenton Greek Septuagint
And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah{gr.Gomorrha} brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.
What was the NET bible translated from?
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What has Trump got to do with Jesus parable?
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defendchrist
Donald Trump said he will ban ALL MUSLIMS and round them up and torture innocent families. He had evangelical Christian votes. They follow the command of Jesus Christ to kill their enemies or deal hashly to anyone who do not support their ideology.
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
Surely your Allah is bigger than Trump and maybe he is one of the poor souls that Allah has purposely led astray.
It’s quite funny listening to Muslims complain about how the west is corrupt and yet Muslims are going there.
You have a Muslim country that will not allow anyone other than Muslims in the city, is that any different from what Trump want Some?
Maybe they should think about living in Saudi Arabia in Mecca where as far as I know as a Christian I can’t enter the city…what’s that all about?
Can I visit the Kaaba?
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It seems you have finally given up on the theological debate, which I don’t blame you for doing so since you were having an utter nightmare to be fair and now have descended into a pseudo-political one. What point are you trying to make so that we are clear?
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I haven’t given up on anything I was answering intellect about Trump wanting Muslims out of America, and I responded by asking why Christians can’t enter Mecca which is what I was told by a Muslim.
If you want to discuss theological subjects with me then the floor is yours, and I didnt come on this blog claiming to be anyone big I’m just joining in the discussion with the knowledge that I have.
So I don’t have a reputation to lose and neither am I trying to get one.
There seems to be a lot of Muslims that wait for the opportunity to jump in and try and make clever comments.
We were discussing the parable of Jesus where he talks about slaying people before him.
According to Islam theology what is Allah going to do with sinners on judgement day?
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Thanks Intellect.
you said:
Prophet Abraham has less knowledge of God than you? Are you smoking wee? or Hashish? or Ganja? What do you mean? A prophet of God who is the Father of monotheism and you are saying you or Christians know God more than him. You are indeed smoking weed.”
I reply:
Yes, he had less knowledge of God during his life than I do now because up to his time there was not much scripture written. Of course he had visions of God and communicated with God but he did not have the scriptures that we have that were written down after him. His conceptual knowledge of God and his redemptive purposes was limited. We can follow the redemptive acts of God from the beginning to the end.
What does “Father of monotheism” mean? There was always a group of believers from Adam to Abraham that worshipped the true God. They must have been monotheists.
According to Jesus John the Baptist was greater than Abraham and all believers under the new covenant are greater than Abraham:
“King James Bible
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”
You said:
“Abraham and Adam know nothing about 3 Persons/persons 1 God, God dying, 100% God 100% man, Triune etc. so your God is different from their God. Your faith is wrong as a Trinitarian.
The concept of God as one, only and alone is not progressive. When a Person is added to the One God it changes the God of Abraham, Moses, Adam, Jesus and all the prophets of God.”
I reply,
I don’t agree that the trinitarian changes the concept of God’s being to be a different God than the God of Abraham. God’s dying as the God-man does not change his being. I don’t add any persons to God because the one person entity of the OT is exactly the same as the three person entity revealed more fully in the NT. God is immutable. My unitarian concept of God does not exclude the trinitarian concept whereas unitarians exclude the trinitarian concept of God from their unitarianism. My unitarianism lives happily together with trinitarianism.
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“Intellect” wrote:
Jesus as a true Christian said his enemies has to be killed and Christians fought wars by killing Arians in the first century and subsequently killing their enemies till today.
Wrong; no Christians killed any Arians in the first century. Period. Go and do some research and use your intellect.
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but they certainly did in the 3rd and 4th century.
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Arianism did not exist in the 3rd century(200s AD). Arias was only beginning to teach that false doctrine some time in the early fourth century. (around sometime between 311 – 325 Ad) and then he was exiled. They exiled Arius, but I don’t recall killing them. They quartered troops later in the 5th and 6th and 7th Centuries against Monophysites, but not killing Arians. Show the evidence.
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my error – you are correct about the dating of Arius.
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thanks Paul for that.
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Ken Temple
Christians and Trinitarian were not strong and were not many but when they got the upper hand they persecuted the Arians. The persecutions of others continued till freedom of religion was forced on them. Jesus himself lack power and he is under the Romans. He showed his anger by ransacking peoples property and disorderly conduct that could land him to jail today. He showed his hatred and anger towards a poor woman.
Jesus did not have power to execute his enemies at that time and will execute his enemies when he comes and assumes power.
Saying Jesus loves his enemies is a lie.
Why?
Jesus whether God or Man or God Man or died or 3 Persons one God does not love his enemies.
Why?
He said will burn them in hell fire. HIS ENEMIES, ENEMIES,ENEMIES, Jesus, HIS ENEMIES will be punished because they do not obey him. There is no love here but punishment. It also contradicts his dying to save mankind. Where is the death of God here?
Thanks.
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Intellect,
Since you also believe that Allah will punish all unbelievers in hellfire forever when they die or after the Mahdi and Christ returns, on judgement day; your argument is stupid to keep making, since we both believe in judgment day and God has the right to punish unbelievers in hell.
What are smoking man, to keep making that argument?
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Erasmus
You said;
I don’t agree that the trinitarian changes the concept of God’s being to be a different God than the God of Abraham. God’s dying as the God-man does not change his being. I don’t add any persons to God because the one person entity of the OT is exactly the same as the three person entity revealed more fully in the NT. God is immutable. My unitarian concept of God does not exclude the trinitarian concept whereas unitarians exclude the trinitarian concept of God from their unitarianism. My unitarianism lives happily together with trinitarianism.
I say;
Perhaps you might want to add Rastarian trinitarianism to your Unitarianism, Mormons immutable persons as God revealed in their scriptures. Hindus incarnated Sai Baba God and many more multi-personal Gods to your Unitarian God.
If Trinitarians did not change the being of God, why did Abraham not know the other beings i.e. Persons as God? The OT always says God is One, only and alone and He is Alone and no one else. The OT never said God is 3 Persons 1 God. Father Victor is free to bring us a clear passage like how I brought a lot of passages that clearly stated God is One, Only and Alone. You said Abraham has less knowledge of God and so he does not know the 2 persons you added to his God.
You said;
reply:
Yes, he had less knowledge of God during his life than I do now because up to his time there was not much scripture written. Of course he had visions of God and communicated with God but he did not have the scriptures that we have that were written down after him. His conceptual knowledge of God and his redemptive purposes was limited. We can follow the redemptive acts of God from the beginning to the end.
I say;
Jason. Where are you? You see Trinitarians? They know God more than Abraham. Trinitarians are saying they know God more than a prophet of God. It is a big insult to the prophets of God. Abraham and the old prophets whom God has chosen as His messengers to convey His message to the people and you say you know God more than them. It is blaspheme to God. Abraham, the one who interacted with God and you said he does not know God than you?
Honestly, Erasmus/madmanna you are now consuming 5 bottles of hot Russian Vodka but not hashies/ganger anymore. It is insult to Abraham for anyone to say he knows God more than him. NO ONE CAN KNOW GOD MORE THAN ABRAHAM. NO ONE. Any one who claims so is under the influence of Satan.
There is not where in the Bible that says “God is 3 Persons/persons 1 God”. Perhaps Father Victor can bring us a clear quotation from Bible.
WHAT YOU ARE SAYING TO ABRAHAM AND GOD AND THEIR PEOPLE AT THAT TIME IS THAT, GOD LIED TO THEM BY PROVIDING HIS LIMITED SELF TO THEM SAYING HE IS THE ONE AND ONLY GOD TO WORSHIP WHO IS ALONE.
WHY SHOULD THEY WORSHIP LESS GOD? REMEMBER YOU SAID THEY HAVE LIMITED KNOWLEDGE OF GOD AND IT MEANS THEY DO NOT KNOW WHO GOD IS. If I have limited knowledge of something, it means only know some part of that thing or not know it at all. SO ADAM/ABRAHAM/MOSES ETC. WORSHIPED AND KNEW SOME PART OF GOD BUT DID NOT KNOW OTHER PARTS.
The God of Abraham said in their scripture that He is the only God and nothing else, so anyone who said their God is less knowledgeable is blaspheming.
Proof: This addressed to the old Prophets are opposite of Trinity.
“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
3.”Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
4.”Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
5.”See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
1.”Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
6.”You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
7.”For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
8.”Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
1.”You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
9.”O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
1.”You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
You said;
I don’t add any persons to God because the one person entity of the OT is exactly the same as the three person entity revealed more fully in the NT.
I say;
1 Person entity in OT is exactly the same as the 3 Persons entity revealed more in the NT.
-Erasmus/madmanna
1 person entity is exactly the same as 3 persons entity.
Only someone who has consumed 8 bottles of very strong Russian Vodka will not see a very big error here.
Father Victor, I am not including you here because a clergy man does not intoxicate himself. I am only with my friend madmanna.
Thanks.
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Thanks Intellect, my old sparring partner.
Even if I don’t agree with your comments I get a good chuckle out of them. I don’t watch television any more. Better to come here and have some fun or read a book, the bible of course 🙂
I have ordered the study koran from amazon. the bound edition. It should be on the way from the good old uk.
No, I am not smoking or drinking. I just believe that the being of God does not follow the law of non-contradiction from our point of view. If the being of God obeyed the same laws as hold for human beings they both would have the same metaphysical form and God would not be fundamentally different to man.
The bible contradicts this unprovable unitarian axiom most clearly, in my view, in John 1 v 1.
You still didn’t explain why Jesus said that John the Baptist was greater than Abraham as a prophet. Doesn’t that make Jesus greater than Abraham?
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Ken Temple
You said;
Ken Temple
August 23, 2016 • 4:59 pm
not hardly a bam at all.
Percentage wise; compared to today. 4 million out of 82 million is what?
.o48 percent.
so I am the one with the “bam, bam” winning argument.
They were 100 % Christian when Islam attacked and slowly worn down over the centuries by injustice and oppression.
no; there have been no Christians in Arabia since Omar expelled and / or killed them. the Najran community in Yemen, the Monophysite Ghassanids and the Nestorian Lakhimids were expelled and then later they dwindled and absorbed into Islam. Like the “Borg” on Star Trek Next generation.
I say;
How about the Yadzidis Christians in Arabia from Jesus time till today? Don’t you know Iraq is Arabia at that tinme? How about indigenous Christians in Kuwait, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Morocco, Qatar etc. and Yemite Jews in Yemen, Iraqi Jews until Israel bribed them to relocate to Israel lately, etc.?
If Islam were bad as you are trying to portray here, you would not have seen 1 of them like how the Christians persecuted Muslims and Jews in Spain and not a single Muslim/Jew was left. The government of Spain is passing a law now to allow Jews as citizens of Spain free of charge for the atrocities of Christians. Because no single Jew or Muslims was left there. The Jews at that time followed their Muslim brothers where ever they go against the harsh crusading Christians following Jesus Command i.e.
Kill my enemies.
-Jesus Christ.
History shows the Mongols killed Muslims and later they converted to Islam. It is a BIG,BIG,BIG,BIG LIE for anyone to claim the Muslims force converted the Mongols. It is not true either for force converting anyone you would not have found indigenous Christians in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Kuwait etc. right now.
Thanks.
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Iraq is not Arabia; what in the world are you talking about?
The Yazidis survived among the Kurds of Northern Iraq, which is where the old Assyrian Empire was – were Jonah went. Very different area from Southern Iraq, which is also very different area from Arabia. (The Hejaz is what Omar and Muhammad were talking about. At most it included modern Saudi Arabia and maybe some of lower parts of southern Jordan, but not Iraq (called Mesopotamia at the time).
How about indigenous Christians in Kuwait, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Morocco, Qatar etc. and Yemite Jews in Yemen, Iraqi Jews until Israel bribed them to relocate to Israel lately, etc.?
Very few are left and they were oppressed by Jiziye and Dhimmi rules. There are a few in Jordan. Lebanon’s Christians are way down since 30 years ago – many have left because of the wars there and the Shiite vs. Sunni rancour, etc. There are not many Christians at all in Kuwait or Qatar. (some may have gone there recently to work in the oil fields and service industries, but not allowed to be citizens.)
Iran has about 1-2 % Christians (but that includes Jews and Zoroastrians also) – very persecuted and oppressed by the majority.
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Ken Temple
What you do not understand is the if they are persecuted for centuries how is it that some are still there? When Christians persecuted Muslims and Jews, non are left in Spain and Europe. If they are force converted why are the few not converted from centuries to centuries. Do you understand FORCE, FORCE, FORCE. You do not understand FORCE because they are still there from centuries practicing their religion.
Jizya or economic reasons? Most Jews and Christians will tell you they are rich than Muslims under Muslim rule from centuries to centuries till today. The Jizya, as tax for non Muslims is reasons for converting to Islam is a big lie. Besides still there are more non Muslims in Muslim majority countries from centuries to centuries. It is fact. If they are less, then it is through sincere conversion but not your theory.
Thanks.
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Ken Temple
You said;
Intellect,
Since you also believe that Allah will punish all unbelievers in hellfire forever when they die or after the Mahdi and Christ returns, on judgement day; your argument is stupid to keep making, since we both believe in judgment day and God has the right to punish unbelievers in hell.
What are smoking man, to keep making that argument?
I say;
I do not Go around saying Allah loves His enemies because I know sometimes Allah punishes His enemies who follow Satan and do not sincerely repents.
Allah punishes his enemies and he does not always love the works of Satan
Jesus as your God punishes his enemies and he does not always love the works of Satan.
So, Jesus does not love his enemies. The enemies of Jesus will be roated in hell fire. It is a lie a very big lie to say Jesus loves his enemies when he will roast them in hell fire.
Thanks.
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Hi Intellect
Why did Jesus say to love your enemies? Simply because if you don’t you are no different than people that are sinners who don’t follow God.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Can you live up to verse 44 if not then your religion counts for nothing because anyone can love their friends…do good to family…pray for those you get along with.
It takes something a bit more special to love your enemies…bless those who curse us…do good to those that hate us etc.
It’s quite sad that as a Muslim that you are speaking in a disrespectful way about Jesus, in other words you can’t even live right by your own religion.
What we believe is Jesus was the lamb of God the sacrifice for all of mankind,and if you put your faith in him that his shed blood on the cross is what washes away all your sin.
This is what makes us fit for heaven because the works of a sinful man can’t pay for the sins of sinful man…your works will not get you to heaven.
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
He is speaking about his enemies not friends…verse 44…pray for those who despitefully use you.
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Hi Intellect
Muslims don’t believe that someone should die for others yet in the Hadith writings we see something interesting.
Abu Musa’ reported that Allah’s Messenger said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665)
Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah’s Apostle said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit IN HIS STEAD a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire. ‘Umar b. Abd al-‘Aziz took an oath: By One besides Whom there is no god but He, thrice that his father had narrated that to him from Allah’s Messenger. (Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6666)
Please explain what…This is your rescue…and in his stead.
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This has already been refuted: http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2016/05/does-islam-teach-substitutionary.html
You guys quote these ahadith without understanding the context..
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With the name of Allah
Imam Al Nawawi said in his commentary on Shahih Muslim شرح صحيح مسلم , when the believer enters Paradise his place in Hell is taken over by the rejector of truth due to their own rejection and sins with the same mount of the sins which match the bad actions they have done in the world.
So If the believer committed sins in the world but his good deeds outweight their bad actions (sins)… in order for them to enter paradise God will exchange the believers sins and absolved them (cleanse them from their sins) with the equal amount of sins onto the rejector of truth (the kuffaar) because of their rejection and sins. So the kuffaar will enter hell because of their own actions, not because of the sins of the Muslims because it is written int eh Qur’an :
“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden” [Q 35:18]
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Hi Eric
I’m still waiting for Intellect to tell when Saudi Arabia abolished slavery.
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And your point DC? The Bible nowhere abolishes slavery, on the contrary the NT says slaves must obey their masters even if they are cruel! Do you accept such teaching DC? Or do you pick and choose?
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Hi Paul
My point? I’m answering Eric and Intellect they are the ones talking about slavery not me, so I’m asking a question because it was something that I want to know because Muslims are going on about Islam liberating people.
It’s okay I found out myself it was 1962.
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I guess you disagree with the Saudi decision? As the Bible nowhere abolishes slavery, on the contrary the NT says slaves must obey their masters even if they are cruel!
Do you accept such teaching DC? Or do you pick and choose?
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Hi Paul
I not picking and choosing and avoiding anything, I think you are quite paranoid as I was only asking a question and you came back about the bible not condemning slavery.
I was reading what Paul said to Timothy and he was talking about the Law.
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust
Menstealers…this is dealing people who enslave people.
2Ki 4:1 Now there cried a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets unto Elisha, saying, Thy servant my husband is dead; and thou knowest that thy servant did fear the LORD: and the creditor is come to take unto him my two sons to be bondmen.
We know from the scripture that now her husband is dead and their debt can’t be paid, the creditor is within in his rights to take her son’s as bondmen in order to pay off the debt.
There are different types of slavery but it nowhere close to the transatlantic slavery from Africa to the America and the West Indies.
Chattel Slavery…Indentured Servitude…Bride sale…Vassalage
The bible doesn’t have what we Chattel slavery which is where the person has no rights or anything.
The bible does speak about indentured slavery which is a person gives themselves over to it out of choice.
The bride sale / price this is not slavery either maybe you should read the bible and get some proper insight.
Exo 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
The above scripture is as plain as day.
Maybe you can find in the bible all the wicked treatment that people experienced at the hand of their slave masters.
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Hi dc, im not sure I understand you, Iv been to Saudi Arabia many times, but I never ever find any slaves there.
Only one circumstance Islam permits taking “slaves” that is the prisoner of war. So this slave is more like war captive like in any other just wars where the winner take captives. But Prophet Muhammad always stressed the importance to treat them kindly and fairly and encourage to release them for those who release them will be protected from hellfire – Hadith Tirmidzi no 1575
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Paulus
The children of Muslim parents are not their ENEMIES so they love them(their children) but giving them tough love.
Jesus said those who will not let him rule them are his enemies and he kills them. There is no love here. Jesus ransacked peoples property and showed disorderly conduct that will put him to jail today and he exhibited hate crime by calling a woman dog because he was angry and hate her because she was gentile.
Call a Hindu, Christian, Jew, White supremacist, black etc. a dog today based on his ethnicity and you will be charged with hate crime and put to jail.
It is only Muslims that Donald Trump and his supporters can insult and go free.
Thanks.
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Ken said:
What are smoking man, to keep making that argument?
Well actually, we should be asking you that. You’re the one who says God loves us. You’ve never been able to provide a reasonable answer to this contradiction. If God loved everyone, then eternal hell would not be possible. So what are you smoking???
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“If God loved everyone, then eternal hell would not be possible.”
Care to elaborate how such a conclusion is warranted from the premise?
So Muslim parents who punish their children don’t love them?
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Paulus
The children of Muslim parents are not their ENEMIES so they love them(their children) but giving them tough love.
Jesus said those who will not let him rule them are his enemies and he kills them. There is no love here. Jesus ransacked peoples property and showed disorderly conduct that will put him to jail today and he exhibited hate crime by calling a woman do because he was angry and hate her because she was gentile.
Call a Hindu, Christian, Jew, White supremacist, black etc. a dog today based on his ethnicity and you will be charged with hate crime and put to jail.
It is only Muslims that Donald Trump and his supporters can insult and go free.
Thanks.
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Ignoring all the irrelevant waffle, you’ve just admitted that love and justice or love and punishment are not incompatible, thereby refuting your fellow Muslim’s completely fallacious reasoning.
Easy, isn’t it.
(P.S it strikes me as odd that you think Jesus was a terrible role model yet you follow a man who married a child.)
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Intellect
Christians are not being called to kill disbelievers in Luke 19-27.
Jesus is merely speaking as god on the day of judgement in the same way allah will judge souls.
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Paulus: So Muslim parents who punish their children don’t love them?
Not if they eternally punish their kids.
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Former Muslim
I do not care if you are a former Muslim. It is not necessary. There are many former Christians as well. If is a command for Christians to kill unbelievers. Christians have done that and continue to follow what Jesus said.
In the OT Jesus as God commanded people to kill people including babies. In the NT under Roman control sensing he(Jesus) cannot kill his enemies he said he will kill his enemies and Christians use that to kill anyone including themselves until stopped by force and freedom of religion forced on them(Christians)
If Jesus said he kills his enemies(unbelievers) and those following him are using it to persecute others what do you think
Thanks
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Hi Intellect
You are obviously not living up to your name.
Who killed all the men women and children in Sodom and Gormorrah?
Who killed all the men women and children in Noah’s flood?
Have you got kind of issue with Jesus?
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In the name of Allah,
//it strikes me as odd that you think Jesus was a terrible role model yet you follow a man who married a child//
No muslim is a muslim if they think Muhammad or Jesus or any other prophets are terrible role model. Intellect talk about Jesus of the new testament.
And by the way I am not impressed with your insult to Prophet of God. Prophet Muhammad marriage is not up to human standard. It is divinely ordained. Btw Prophet Jesus was never recorded ever married , but we muslims have no business of questioning whether he was or gay or not even though as a jewish rabbi the norm was man of his age must have he must have been married to a woman. I can sense your deep hate toward Islam inside you.
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Intellect
I used to sound just like you, until I realized how crazy my words were. Nothing in what you said is true – either you are being wicked and deliberately lying, or you are horribly ignorant.
There’s no point in engaging with people like you.
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A calvinist would agree. A love that doesn’t save from hell can’t be much of a love can it? What’s it worth? Are those in hell going to sing its praises?
The world of John 3 v 16 can’t be quantified can it? In terms of human lives. Whosoever believeth is determined by election so it can’t be everybody. As other passages in the bible and the gospel of John demonstrate.
Perhaps to be controversial I might ask is John 3 v 16 the gospel? I can’t see it being preached anywhere in Acts in that form. The gospel is the command to repent, believe and be baptized in the the name of Jesus for remission of sins is it not? It doesn’t seem to be an appeal to something about God where he feels the same way about everybody so nobody can feel that he is excluded.
It’s gots the outlines of a classical calvinist vs arminian debate on this thread. It looks like Islam tries to have a foot on both sides of the fence without firmly coming down on one side or the other. Perhaps another of it’s inconsistencies where it tries to be all things to all men.
Is Allah the author of sin if he predestinates those who are led astray? It looks like it. So why does he get mad and punish people in hell for something he has caused to happen? Assuming he could have caused it to be otherwise. Which seems to be a reasonable assumption for someone who is called Lord of the Worlds.
Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
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With the name of Allah
Imam Al Nawawi said in his commentary on Shahih Muslim شرح صحيح مسلم , when the believer enters Paradise his place in Hell is taken over by the rejector of truth due to their own rejection and sins with the same mount of the sins which match the bad actions they have done in the world.
So If the believer committed sins in the world but his good deeds outweight their bad actions (sins)… in order for them to enter paradise God will exchange the believers sins and absolved them (cleanse them from their sins) with the equal amount of sins onto the rejector of truth (the kuffaar) because of their rejection and sins. So the kuffaar will enter hell because of their own actions, not because of the sins of the Muslims because it is written int eh Qur’an :
“And no bearer of burdens shall bear another’s burden” [Q 35:18]
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Only true believers experience the love of God. Of course if you reject Jesus as Messiah, Son of God, eternal Word who became flesh, was crucified, dead, buried, rose from the dead and ascended back into heaven and seated at the Father’s right hand, of course the wrath of God abides on you.
A Believer can say:
“God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:8
But about an unbeliever:
“whoever does not trust in Christ / or refuses to be persuaded, the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36
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LOL, so when Christians say to people “God loves you”, they are lying through their teeth in order to deceive them! Thank you for showing this. Christianity is a religion that thrives on conning people with emotions, rather than reason.
So the next time you bring up the ludicrous verse “God so loved the world that he gave his son…”, we can throw it back in your face. It was a lie concocted by deceitful Christians who pretended to be “inspired”. In Christianity, God clearly does not love everyone. Whatever love is given is conditional.
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“God loves you” is always to be understood as “if you realize you are a sinner and under the wrath of God; and repent and believe in Christ, you will then experience the love of God”. “If you don’t repent, the wrath of God abides on you” John 3:36
Those that repent and believe can then look back and give glory to God for working in their hearts and opening their hearts to understand, repent and believe – “I used to be an enemy” – Romans 5:6-11 – Christ died for me and my sins” – 1 Cor. 15:1-9 – “Christ died for our sins”, etc.
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It is not vindication in the sense that you think it is (Good vs Bad). People at the time used to marry or were promised to be married at very early ages. It was tradition but mainly due to the fact that people used to die very young to do conditions/disease causing very low life expectancy. Many women and children used to die from childbirth.
Also, it is not Just Catholics who say this. It is widely known in Churches, whether you believe it or are too proud to believe it is irrelevant. The main point is that this is the only information available about Joseph’s age so now you have to prove to us that you are privy to information about Joseph that the whole of Christendom has not got. I look forward to your evidence of this.
The very fact that you do not realise that during those early periods that it was normal for people to marry at that age just shows your cherry picking and twisting of history to suit your warped sense of reality.
The problem is you do not know your own scriptures or history. You are confused and lost which manifests itself as you defeating your own arguments.
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Hey
You said this…
The very fact that you do not realise that during those early periods that it was normal for people to marry at that age just shows your cherry picking and twisting of history to suit your warped sense of reality.
The problem is you do not know your own scriptures or history. You are confused and lost which manifests itself as you defeating your own arguments.
Here you go with prideful attitude “the very fact that you do not realise” I told you where the understanding of Joseph being 90 years old came from they are from questionable scriptures.
And furthermore you don’t have a clue what I know where did you read me quote anything in regards to cherry picking and twisting history?
The history of Joseph the carpenter is 7th century it is so far from the actual event,it’s a bit like the Koran so far from the actual events..
Why don’t you quote from the gospels to prove your point? I quoted from Luke to ask you if it plausible to suggest that a 12 year old could travel 90 miles by themselves in that time all the while pregnant.
It doesn’t make Islam true by trying to discredit Christianity something which has been going on since the 11th century and Muslims have still made any real progress.
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Ken
Now you accept my repeated Luke in which Jesus does not love his enemies. Thanks. Anyone who says Jesus loves his enemies is a liar because Jesus does not love his enemies and he kills his enemies.
Thanks.
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Romans 5:9-11
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
John 3:16 – “For God so loved the World that He gave His only unique Son, that all the believing ones would not perish, but inherit eternal life.”
“The world” = people from all nations. (Revelation 5:9 – some from every tribe and nation and people and language have been purchased / redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
“the world” also points to from every social class and men and women, etc.
Galatians 3:29
Colossians 3:9-11
Those that say “God loves everybody unconditionally” is not accurate – it is understood, that if you don’t repent and believe in Christ, the wrath of God abides on you – John 3:36
What they mean is that God loves sinners; and you are a sinner, and if you repent and believe in Christ, then you will experience God’s love.
But everyone is a sinner and enemy of God before they repent and believe, and are under the wrath of God until they repent and believe in Christ.
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Hi guys
You Muslims sound the unbelieving sinners of our world pro abortion pro homosexual etc who think there should be love with no judgement
Intellect I thought you had more sense that…is Jesus is a liar??? Have you lost your mind? And Faiz what are you talking about?
Let me say it this way because you missing the point so listen…A judge is sitting in court about to hear the case it so happens the next person to be tried is his son.
This judge loves his son when he good he loved his son, and when the son did bad although the judge didn’t agree he still loved his son.
This son has done things that will carry a sentence of 20 years, should the judge let him go home because he loves him or should he sentence him for his crimes.
For what I can gather you guys would say let him go, and by that understanding no one should be in prison.
So when judgement day comes God will deal with everyone…enemy,hypocrites and everything else.
Just one other thing the bible says that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels.(Matt 25:41)
So please stop trying slander the Lord Jesus Christ
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Hi Intellect
I do remember Jesus speaking and saying thses words…
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
He said this for the benefit of his enemies
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Paulus,
You do realise what the word “eternal” means right… it means forever. So going to hell for all eternity is not a strong argument for Jesus’s love… But mainly your argument is the fallacious argument since you seem to conflate Muslims disciplining their children with the eternal punishment and damnation of hell. How the hell (pun intended) can you attempt to argue that they are analogous?
Also, next time when you think you are being clever by throwing an insult about anyone let alone a prophet of God you need to consider the glass house (or what’s left of it, since all the windows have been long shattered) that Christians live in. You do realise that Mary (mother of Jesus) Married Joseph who was known to be between 80 & 90 Years old don’t you? And Mary was between the ages of 9-12. This is Christian scholarly work, not Muslims saying this.
You keep embarrassing yourself either through ignorance, hypocrisy or both.
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Hi thirstforknowledge78
I can’t believe you guys will jump on any information that discredits characters in the bible to vindicate your prophet.
You said Joseph was 90 years old when he married Mary, where did you get that from?
The only writings I can think of are…The history of Joseph the carpenter (7th century) or The infancy gospel of James.
Furthermore are you saying that when Jesus went missing for three days and was found debating with the scribes that Joseph was between 103-104 years old?
And what about Mary when she found out she was pregnant and that her cousin Elizabeth was also pregnant she rushed off and travelled about 90 miles to visit Elizabeth as 12 years old usually do.
You sound like you have been smoking the Catholic pipe trying to defend your guilty prophet.
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Nice post!
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Speaking of Muhammad’s marriage to a sexual premature child, here is my thorough refutation of Jonathan Brown’s shameless defense of a 54 year old man having sex with a prepubescent girl. Enjoy!
http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/08/revisiting-age-of-aisha-pt-1.html
http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/08/revisiting-age-of-aisha-pt-2.html
http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/08/revisiting-age-of-aisha-pt-3.html
http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/08/revisiting-age-of-aisha-pt-4.html
http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2016/08/revisiting-age-of-aisha-postscript.html
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defendchrist
It is not vindication in the sense that you think it is (Good vs Bad). People at the time used to marry or were promised to be married at very early ages. It was tradition but mainly due to the fact that people used to die very young to do conditions/disease causing very low life expectancy. Many women and children used to die from childbirth.
Also, it is not Just Catholics who say this. It is widely known in Churches, whether you believe it or are too proud to believe it is irrelevant. The main point is that this is the only information available about Joseph’s age so now you have to prove to us that you are privy to information about Joseph that the whole of Christendom has not got. I look forward to your evidence of this.
The very fact that you do not realise that during those early periods that it was normal for people to marry at that age just shows your cherry picking and twisting of history to suit your warped sense of reality.
The problem is you do not know your own scriptures or history. You are confused and lost which manifests itself as you defeating your own arguments.
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Sorry, I mistakenly replied to “Defendchrist” instead of “thirstforknowledge”. I meant to say “nice post!” to thirstforknowledge. Nice work in refuting defendchrist.
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Hey Faiz
You said…
Sorry, I mistakenly replied to “Defendchrist” instead of “thirstforknowledge”. I meant to say “nice post!” to thirstforknowledge. Nice work in refuting defendchrist.
Where was I refuted? Thirstforknowledge78 didn’t present anything concrete in regards to Joseph being 80-90 years old.
He claimed I didn’t my scriptures yet he didn’t give any scriptures, yet I gave him a 7th century false gospel where that info originated.
And it is only from the 5th century where we start seeing Joseph being depicted as an old man.
So to say I was refuted is to be looking desperately for a victory!
I then quoted from Luke 2 how was Mary as a 12 year old pregnant girl travelled 90 miles to her cousin.
The only reason you guys are saying this is to defend your prophet from shame, as he was meant to be a great example.
It’s sad Muslims are always trying to discredit people in the bible or even Jesus himself, yet claim they believe in him.
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Where do the scriptures say Joseph was 80-90 years old? Is that in the gospels?
My warped sense of reality?? It’s not me who has a prophet of 55 years having sex with a 9 year old girl still playing with dolls…I find that warped.
Joseph is just an ordinary man it’s quite sad that you Muslims attack him to defeat your prophet.
It’s Muslims even today who are sanctioning marriages of men to little girls just like their prophet.
How can an old man feel sexually attracted to a little girl…that’s warped.
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If is a command for Christians to kill unbelievers.
“Intellect”
Now you are lying. There is no such command anywhere in the NT.
The verse in Luke 19:27 is about judgment day and what Jesus will do when He returns. (or when people die and they have not repented and believed in Christ)
Notice it is a parable – you have to read all of it from Luke 19:11 – 27 – they supposed (wrongly thought the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately – they wrongly thought the Kingdom of God was a political and military kingdom.
notice verse 15 – “when the King returns” . Hello? Jesus has not returned yet.
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world, if it was of this world (materialistic, political, military – like Islam is); then my servants would be fighting; but as it is My Kingdom is NOT of this world.” John 18:36)
But Islam does have a clear verse that commands, “fight the people of the book”, etc. (Surah 9:28-29)
And that is what they actually did in history all through history, until they were stopped.
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Ken Temple
You said;
There are some Christians working in Saudi Arabia, but they are not allowed to witness to Saudi nationals and are not allowed to have church meetings. they are guest workers and not citizens and are separated from the Saudis in their own closed off housing developments. (Indians, Filipinos, Koreans, Palestinians, Iraqis, workers from other countries, etc.)
I say;
That is Saudi law and Arabia is now broken into countries and each has its own law combined with some Islamic and other un Islamic laws.
Islam allows co-existence of other religions. Syria, Jordan, Kuwait, Yemen, Morroco, Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. are all Muslim majority countries that has indigenous Jews, Christians and other non Muslims living there for centuries and today.
Your theory of force converting them to Islam is wrong for all of them would have been Muslims by now. That is what is meant by FORCE. Compare it when Christians captured Muslim slaves from Africa and brought them to the US and force convert them to Christianity and segregate them into black Churches and White Churches. All slaves at one time are Christians and not Muslims until the freedom of religion was forced on the Christians by liberals, secularists and other good Christians.
After freedom of religion, the blacks like Mohammed Ali Cassius Clay, Malcom X etc. converted to Nation of Islam and then to the real Islam
There are indigenous Christians and Jews in Arabia like the Yemite Jews, Coptic Christians etc. and their Churches and Synagogues intact in Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Jordan etc. and some are rich than Muslims. The majority converted to Islam wilfully and the less are still there. Jizya could not have force convert anyone, Some Muslims are poor than the Jews and Christians anyway.
The Saudis allow Christians to have Church meetings. Not I Mecca which is the Holy Site and highly religious but Christians are allowed to practice their religion elsewhere. Aramco in Saudi Arabia was acquired by the US so that they do not submit to Saudi laws.
I do not expect Muslims to build a Mosque in the Vatican or to become a president of the US because the majority Christians will not vote for him.
Ken, do not expect everything from Muslims but Muslims allows Christians, Jews and others to flourish because our Quran and Hadith said we must not persecute them and allow them to be free and not force convert them. Ken once again you do not expect everything like building a Church in a Muslim Holy City of Mecca.
Thanks.
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Hi intellect
You said this…
Your theory of force converting them to Islam is wrong for all of them would have been Muslims by now. That is what is meant by FORCE. Compare it when Christians captured Muslim slaves from Africa and brought them to the US and force convert them to Christianity and segregate them into black Churches and White Churches. All slaves at one time are Christians and not Muslims until the freedom of religion was forced on the Christians by liberals, secularists and other good Christians.
Please tell me when slavery was abolished in Saudi Arabia? Then we can discuss Islamic slavery.
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Nice insight brother Abbas, Ken is full of distortion. There are no such a thing as a “forced conversion”. I do not even understand how people can force people to believe something they do not believe. Belief is very private. People can pretend to believe something if they are forced to but inside their consciousness believe to what they believe and will return to the belief they believe in once the subjugation are gone.
For instance If Egypt who were once 100% christian and were once forced to embrace Islam out of their will, they should be back to christian majority country by now. The fact that there were no records of mass exodus back to christianity is a proof that they become muslim voluntarily because of theological reasons after some exposure to Islamic teaching by the great ulemas of the past.
Another example is The christian Dutch had occupied and subdued Indonesian archipelago for almost 4 centuries. They have plenty of time to witness to muslims there and yes this christian colonial power had bring their nice missionaries with them. Most of the muslims were poor and marginal in the economy while the Dutch living in luxury and favoured those Indonesians who converted to christians. But after after 4 centuries Indonesian remain muslim majority country 88-90% are still muslims.
The reality is people believe to what they think is true not by force.
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Lassie said:
““If God loved everyone, then eternal hell would not be possible.”
Care to elaborate how such a conclusion is warranted from the premise?
So Muslim parents who punish their children don’t love them?”
LOL!! This might be the dumbest thing you have said, and you have said some really dumb things!
Parents may discipline their children in various ways: grounding, withholding allowance or even physical punishment, but I doubt that any loving parent could even think of TORTURING their child, causing the child immense agony. In contrast, you want us to believe that God “loves” everyone but will torture us in hell with UNENDING agony if we don’t accept that he came down as a human and died for our sins! How you think that this is the same as a parent punishing a child is beyond me. I sure hope you don’t have kids! Yikes!
Why don’t think before you bark? I know it’s hard for your dog brain, but won’t you at least try? You’re embarrassing yourself.
Now, go ahead and rant and rave and then run away with your tail between your legs, like you usually do ! 😉
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Very True, I already refuted him about his fallacious claim that conflating eternal hell and damnation can be comparable or analogous to a parent telling his child off is the epitome of a misguided and proud heart. What you have to realise is that people of his ilk will are disingenuous. They don’t actually care about truth or logic as its all a numbers game to them. Like a snake oil salesman, talk to enough people and you may find someone who will buy it. They will continue to say the same thing over and over again despite the answer already given to them.The law of averages is their game.
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Hi Thirstfornowledge78 and Faiz
You haven’t refuted anyone you Muslims are always appealing to logic.
Is it logical to walk on water…or make birds out of clay (Koran) or even raise someone from the dead, and here you are having a hard time understanding love and judgement.
The person is using an analogy by using the example of parents and their children.
Hell is separation from God.
If God offers you life with him in eternity through trusting in Jesus Christ his Son, then if you reject that offer of life then it becomes our problem.
God will make people do things against their will…that’s why Jesus said “if any man will”
Jesus also said…”that whosoever” which means this is open to everyone…this is not a contradiction! God can love people all he wants but if people don’t respond,they pay the consequences for their choices.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
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Defendchrist,
Your response is typical of apologists. You did not address the question and instead used absurd logic to save your illogical theology.
First of all, we are not talking about miracles, so your red herring is just an attempt to deflect from the issue at hand. Miracles are a matter of the supernatural and unseen world. That is a matter of faith, unless you can provide observational evidence that they can occur.
The analogy of parents punishing their children is absurd as I already explained. It was utterly idiotic of your fellow Christian to compare that to God punishing people in hell.
Now, your attempt to rationalize the clear contradiction between the idea of a “loving” God and the idea that He will punish people in hell for eternity is also absurd. In fact, you just proved what I said earlier, that the “love” you people speak of is conditional. It is nothing special. But it is absurd to say that if we reject God’s offer of life, then it is “our problem”. Why can’t God just destroy those who reject him, so that they cease to exist instead of torturing them in hell for eternity? How is that “our problem”? It seems like a deliberate act of cruelty when God could just as easily make our souls disappear forever. This is not the act of a “loving” God. You have utterly failed, as have other Christians, to explain this contradiction. Thus, I think it is best for you Christians to stop saying “God loves you”. It is clearly a fraudulent statement, and it makes you look like liars who try to dupe people into joining your religion by appealing to their emotions.
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Hi Faiz
What do you actually believe you sound like a Jehovah Witness than a Muslim.
Is the following scripture true or false? Does Allah love his creation?
Sura 32:14
So taste [punishment] because you forgot the meeting of this, your Day; indeed, We have [accordingly] forgotten you. And taste the punishment of eternity for what you used to do.”
Sura 5:36-37
Certainly, those who disbelieved, if they possessed everything on earth, even twice as much, and offered it as ransom to spare them the retribution on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them; they have incurred a painful retribution.
[5:37] They will want to exit Hell, but alas, they can never exit therefrom; their retribution is eternal.
Now does eternity and eternal mean that for those people?
Don’t you understand the bible and what Jesus is saying in the gospel of John.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
It is through the love of God that Jesus came and died for mankind…the whosoever means that whoever makes the choice will experience eternal life…all who reject him…
Does Allah love his creation? The Koran says eternal punishment just like the bible.
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Defendchrist,
Not surprisingly, you have missed the point yet again.
I am not questioning the morality of eternal punishment in hell. I am questioning the contradiction in Christian theology when it insists that God “loves” us, but will torture us in hell if we don’t accept his “offer of life”. It is illogical to say that God “loves” us and yet also say that He will torture us for eternity to punish us. Thus far, not one of you Christians has offered a reasonable explanation for this contradiction.
What you don’t realize is that Allah (swt) does not mince words, and He has made it clear that He does NOT love all of humanity. In fact, the Quran states:
“Say: “Obey Allah and His Messenger”: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith” (3:32).
“Call on your Lord with humility and in private: for Allah loveth not those who trespass beyond bounds” (7:55).
In contrast, you want me to believe the Christian myth that God “loves” all people and yet will torture those who reject Him. That is not “love”. Just admit it and move on.
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Hi Faiz
So are you saying that Allah feels nothing towards the people that he sentence to hell?
What are the people that Allah leads astray
And We have not made the keepers of the Fire except angels. And We have not made their number except as a trial for those who disbelieve – that those who were given the Scripture will be convinced and those who have believed will increase in faith and those who were given the Scripture and the believers will not doubt and that those in whose hearts is hypocrisy and the disbelievers will say, “What does Allah intend by this as an example?” Thus does Allah leave astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows the soldiers of your Lord except Him. And mention of the Fire is not but a reminder to humanity.
I think there are a lot of Musloms that fit the description of hypocrites.
In the book of Genesis before the flood of Noah the bible says that the condition of man’s heart and his actions grieved God.
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Or do you not believe that man has a free will?
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“It is illogical to say that God “loves” us and yet also say that He will torture us for eternity to punish us”
The bible doesn’t say this. Just another straw man.
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Moslems are supposed to believe in predestination. How do they square that with hell fire? Can the one who is predestined by Allah to be an unbeliever change his destiny to avoid hell fire? Is Allah just to throw him in hell?
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Is Islam supralapsarianist or infralapsarianist in its predestination?
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spelling advice: “Moslems” should be spelt Muslims
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Defendchrist and Erasmus,
You keep trying to deflect to the issue of predestination in Islam, but that doesn’t change your inability to explain the contradiction between the Christian dictum “God loves you” and the Christian belief that unbelievers will burn in hell for eternity. The two ideas cannot be reconciled. Why can’t you just admit that?
Eramsus, you said:
“The bible doesn’t say this. Just another straw man.”
Which part doesn’t the Bible say? Can you clarify?
And how is it a “straw man”? It’s you Christians who go around saying “God loves you”, right? So, don’t blame me for what your brethren say. I am just pointing out the contradiction, which none of you have been able to explain.
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Faiz
The reason why I used miracles is because you kept saying we don’t look at things in a logical way, but someone walking on water is not logical yet it is still in the bible as fact.
Is a Virgin birth logical?
Do Muslims have a free will? So if a Muslim was living righteously and then decided to go astray would Allah cease to love that man or woman?
The bible says…Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
This is what our bible says.
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Defendchrist,
I already explained why referring to miracles is just a deflection that has nothing to do with the topic. Miracles cannot be observed under normal circumstances. We are talking about the contradiction in your theology.
Your Bible also says that unbelievers will burn in hell for eternity, does it not? So how can God love them? You’re dancing around this issue, because you have no answer and you don’t want to admit that the two beliefs are contradictory.
When a person goes astray, he can still be saved if Allah wants to save him. Whether He does so or not is based on His infinite knowledge and wisdom. A person earns either mercy or punishment based on his actions and only Allah determines this.
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Hi Faiz
It seems to me that you are avoiding answering me I sent you scriptures to explain and you have not even answered what I sent.
God showed his love by sending his Son to die for us when we were his enemies, which is why I quoted in Romans.
The bible says…Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Where is the contradiction in these verses.
You haven’t explained why it is a contradiction maybe you can’t read English properly, neither have you explained what happens to a Muslim that stops living righteously…does Allah stop loving them because they have gone astray?
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Defendchrist,
It seems that you are the one having difficulty reading. It’s already been explained that claiming God loves you but will burn you in hell are completely is contradictory. Your appeal to the Biblical verses didn’t prove anything except that God’s love is conditional and therefore nothing special.
Your attempts to divert to Islam are thus just that, a diversion.
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Hi Faiz
It seems to me that you don’t want to answer my questions, when I have already answered you.
Let me say anything step by step so you understand me.
1. Man is a sinner and has no righteousness for him to be able to go heaven.
2. God loves mankind and to show that he has provided a sacrifice for sin…Jesus Christ.
3. Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
4. If you don’t repent of your sins and receive forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ, even though God loves you, you will eternity unforgiveness and go to hell.
What is so difficult to understand about the scriptures?
And you on the other hand haven’t explained the following…
If a Muslim who was living righteously before Allah decides to go astray into sin and refuse to repent would Allah cease to love that person?
I’m not diverting from the issue but if Islam is true then please answer the question
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Defendchrist,
You don’t seem to get it that if God truly “loves” us, then no matter what we do, He would not punish us with eternal suffering in hell. That is not “love”. How can you claim to “love” someone, yet deliberately torture them for eternity when they don’t do what you say? How is that “love”?
Your answers are absurd because they don’t answers these questions. You think that because God was willing to provide a path to forgiveness, that somehow proves that He “loves” us. Yet, wouldn’t it be better to forgive regardless of our response to Him? Wouldn’t that be true “love”? You can’t answer this question which is why you keep dancing around it.
A Muslim who goes astray by committing shirk, refuses to repent and dies in that state is not loved by Allah (Glorified and Exalted be He), as the Quran states, and thus he will go to hell. However, a Muslim who does not become an unbeliever but is a sinner in other ways (maybe he drinks or commits fornication), God still loves that person but He may determine that this person be punished TEMPORARILY in hell for his sins. When God has determined that this person has been punished enough, he will be taken out of hell and put into Paradise for eternity. Thus, God does love this person. This can be seen in a beautiful hadith from Sahih Bukhari:
“Narrated ‘Abdullah: The Prophet said, “I know the person who will be the last to come out of the (hell) Fire, and the last to enter Paradise. He will be a man who will come out of the (hell) Fire crawling, and Allah will say to him, ‘Go and enter Paradise.’ He will go to it, but he will imagine that it had been filled, and then he will return and say, ‘O Lord, I have found it full.’ Allah will say, ‘Go and enter Paradise, and you will have what equals the world and ten times as much (or, you will have as much as ten times the like of the world).’ On that, the man will say, ‘Do you mock at me (or laugh at me) though You are the King?” I saw Allah’s Apostle (while saying that) smiling that his premolar teeth became visible. It is said that will be the lowest in degree amongst the people of Paradise.”
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Hi Faiz
No o e who goes to hell gets out so Muhammad is liar.
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Defend christ: “No o e who goes to hell gets out so Muhammad is liar.”
So your god has no mercy of which you and other Christians constantly speak of?
“So Muhammad is a liar”
Why because he disagrees with your scripture which all academics, apologists and scholars agree are corrupt, added to, taken from, mistranslated, contradictory?
You have no argument that makes sense or does not completely pull the rug from under itself. Just because “you say so” or your scripture “says so” does not make it so…
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Hi Thirstforknowledge78
Can you quote me out of the word of Allah…the Koran some verses that speak of people coming out of hell going into heaven.
The way I understand it is you do your repenting here and get right with God before you die, our fate is sealed when we die.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is nothing here about people getting out of the lake of fire…of which death and hell will be thrown into.
Can you quote out of the suras in the Koran of people coming out of hell after going into the fire.
You sound like a Catholic that believes in Purgatory…madness
Bringing up stuff about academics and whoever else doesn’t agree with Christians means nothing people have been trying for hundreds of years and still no progress.
Prove your case from the Koran…it’s meant to be Allah’s word isn’t it?
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Ken Temple
If God can become God man to love you, why can’t God become Cow Man to love somebody?
Emperor Haile Selaissie to love somebody?
Sai Baba to love someone? etc. after all you believed God can become a man(creature) to love you.
Your response will be your scripture said this or that. They also have their scripture and we all have our scripture and we cannot use it and say you must believe BY FORCE what it says BY FORCE. Do not force your scriptures on Hindus and Rastafarians.
The cardinal point is that you all have your scriptures and believed the same-God can become a man and love you.
Thanks.
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Because the Scriptures don’t say any of those things. Sai Baba is a Hindu guru, polytheism, paganism, false religion.
The Scriptures were complete when the last book was written around 96 AD. (Revelation or Jude, ?) There is no more written revelation after that, and no Hindu Scripture is credible because it is a false religion.
Animals do not need salvation; but mankind does need salvation from sin. therefore, the eternal Son became human, in order to become the savior, sacrifice, and high priest for humans in taking their place and defeating the devil, and making propitiation (satisfying God’s anger against sin) for the sins of the people. He does not save fallen angels (demons), but humans, by becoming human, dying and rising again.
“Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 2:14-18
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Precisely right. God the Father aka Yahweh clearly and unequivocally states “there is NO God besides me”.
Case for Christ as God closed.
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Defendchrist said:
“Hi Faiz
No o e who goes to hell gets out so Muhammad is liar.”
Um, no. You are a liar. Your Bible is full of lies. No one with an ounce of reason will believe in its contradictory theology.
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By the way, Revelation is an utterly ridiculous book which is full of false prophecies. Read my article here:
http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-book-of-revelation.html
Just because the Bible says some things does not mean it is true. You Christians seem to think that just quoting a bunch of Bible verses proves anything. It doesn’t. Non-Christians don’t give a hoot about what it says, so you need to stop using it as “proof”.
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