God has no beginning, Jesus has beginning so he can not be God.

awal akhir.png

The holy Qur’an says: God is the first and the last, the alpha and the Omega, Huwal Awwal wal âkhir  هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَالْآخِرُ  

This is what is called the existence of being  Al-Wujud al-Dzâti الوجود الذاتي  . This is inherent existence and not acquired one from anywhere. This type of existence applies only to God (Glorified be He) and it is one of His Attributes, as His existence had nothing before or after it. This attribute of existence is  in accordance to God’s Positive quality (Nafsiyah)   نفسية  therefore the non-existence or the beginning of God is impossible and it is called the impossibility of God attribute or the Salbiyah  سلبية) in Islamic theology.

People are demanded to worship God who belongs to this attribute only, and it is a big sin to worship anything who has the beginning be it Angel, holy man, prophet of God, Ghost, Sun, Mountain, rock, etc) because they are a mere  creation not a creator.

In the hebrew Bible YHWH too has this  Al-Wujud al-Dzâti quality. He exists before any other creations.

We read in the Torah:

בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

Genesis 1:1

Beresyit Bara ELOHIM et HaSyamayim we-et HaArets
“In the beginning, ELOHIM created heaven and earth”

In the Targum we read:

בְּקַדְמִין, בְּרָא יְיָ, יָת שְׁמַיָּא, וְיָת אַרְעָא.

Be-qadmin Beraa YY,Yat Syemayya weYat ar’a
“On Qidam (which exist before everything else), YY created  heaven and earth ”

Great jewish sage, rabbi Sa’adiah ben Yosef Gaon in his commentary wrote (in Judeo-arabic document)

אַוַּל מַא כְ׳לַק אללָּה אלסְּמַאוַאת וַאל אַרץ׳

Awwala Ma KholaqALLAH  (In the beginning was what Allah has created)
as-samaawati wal ard (Heaven and the Earth)

Here we understand that  YHWH is ALLAH itself whom have created things which previously did not exist.

Linguistically  YHWH means “He who always exists”

Ponder this verse from the Hebrew Bible

:

וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל-מֹשֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם

Exodus 3:14

wayyomer Elohim el mosyeh (and God said to Moses) EHYEH ASYER EHYEH (I exists who I exist)   wayyomer (and He said) koh Tomar (thus you say) li-beney Yisrael (to people of Israel) EHYEH (I exists) syelachni (has sent me) aleykhem (to you)

 

Rabbi Sa’adiah ben Yosef Gaon also in his commentary wrote in particular to this verse (in judeo -arabic)

קַאל לֹה . אַלאַזְלִי אַלְּדִ׳י לַא יְזוּּל.
תֻ׳ם קַאל.
כְדַ׳א קֻל לִבְנִי אִסרַאִיל .
אַלאַזְלִי בַעַת׳נִי אְלַיכֻם

Qoola lah (He said to him)
Al azali (exits with no beginning) Alladzi la Yazul (who exist without end)
tsumma qoola (then He said)
kadzaa qul (likewise it was said) li bani isrooil (to the people of Israel)
Al Azali (those who has no beginning ) ba’atsni (has sent me) ilaykum (to you)

The name YHWH  יהוה 

יהוה

Hebrew

Aramaic

Arabic

היה

הוה

هوي

Hayah

Howah  Hawaya

 

From dictionary of arabic bible  under YHWH يهوه we read:

ولفظة يهوه هي فعل المضارع من هيه أو هوه كما كان في الأصل، ومعناه كان، أو حدث، أو وجد وبعبارة أخرى هو الذي كان، والذي أعلن ذاته وصفاته

“and the termيهوه  is in imperfect tense which come from from the word  Hayah or Howeh,like the the word Kaana originally and with the meaning “be” or Hadats “make into existence” or Wujud “exist”, and other similar meaning related to  “He who (always) exist” and this  explains His essence and attribute.”

Whereas Jesus (whom trinitarian believe a hybrid god-man) came into existence only in some 2.000 years ago. He was born of a woman and partaking of a flesh and blood nature just like any other human being. He has beginning therefore Jesus can not be God, the creator of the everything , the first and the last.

 



Categories: Christianity, God, Islam, Judaism

Tags: , ,

66 replies

  1. wow, Eric!you making me feel really at home 😉 great post תודה רבה

    Liked by 4 people

  2. “… and it is a big sin to worship anything who has the beginning be it Angel, holy man, prophet of God, …”

    Unfortunately as trinitarian Christian you must worship Christ’s human nature.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Most christians are not aware of this trap and fell into idolatry.

      Liked by 3 people

    • Hi Burhanuddin1

      Who is this talking to Abraham?

      Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
      Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
      Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

      This is not even the NT this is the Jewish text this is not made up by Christians.

      Like

    • defendchrist

      Are you serious? Cant be Jesus Christ. According to you Jesus Christ is the incarnated 2nd person of the trinity.That incarnation took place at a certain point in time hundreds of years after Abraham’s death.

      Jesus Christ the God-Man had a beginning.

      Like

  3. The problem for muslims is that the quran says that allah breathed his spirit into Maryam and she conceived jesus. If your argument is to work, you will have to explain how allah’s spirit – which must be eternal and without beginning – can enter into human flesh, i.e. finiteness.

    Jesus, according to the quran, is god’s spirit breathed into flesh – so if he had a beginning, then your allah’s spirit must have had a beginning, but it can’t because it is infinite, but……

    Like

    • With the name of Allah,

      Trey,

      When the Qur’an mention about Jesus as being a word kalimah كَلِمَة from God , it is error those who think that this “word” is God himself who incarnated into man.

      No muslims think that way, the Qur’an describes the annunciation story that when the angel told Mary that she will conceive Jesus, and she asked the angel how she could conceive and have a child when no man had touched her. The angel replied: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!”

      ‘Be,’ and it is! is a word from God, a divine act which resulted in the creation of Jesus.

      There are several instances when the term kalimah كَلِمَة is used throughout the Qur’an, one particular instance is in 43:28 in which God had made promise to Abraham that: God made it a word remaining among Abraham descendants that they might return [to it].

      We muslims never fell into idolatry in believing that this “word” of God is actually God himself who roam the world among Abraham descendants. This “word” refers to the statement of the affirmation of God’s Oneness, which is understood to be what Abraham stated in verses 43:26– 27 , or to the testimony of faith, “There is no god but God”. This can also be understood as Abraham’s statement in 37: 99, “Truly, I am going unto my Lord. He will guide me”, or to 2: 131, “And when his Lord said unto him, “Submit!” he said, “I submit to the Lord of the worlds.”” meaning that later generations might return to this “word” as an act of obedience to God

      Like

    • Eric

      You are dodging.

      the quran says that allah breathed his spirit into maryam and she conceived jesus – is allah’s spirit infinite or finite? Was allah creating his own spirit when it entered human flesh?

      Like

    • The Qur’an refer to Jesus (peace be upon him) as Ruhullaha spirit from Allah” …not as the spirit of Allah nor as Allah Himself.

      لْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ

      The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him.

      Spirit from Allah is breathed in every human being, not only to prophet Jesus (p). The Qur’an mentions in several places that Allah breathed into the human beings “His Spirit”

      “When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit (رُّوحِي), fall ye down in obeisance unto him.”
      [Al-Qur’an 15:29]

      “But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit (رُّوحِهِ). And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!”
      [Al-Qur’an 32:9]

      Liked by 1 person

    • Eric

      “Spirit from Allah is breathed in every human being, not only to prophet Jesus (p). The Qur’an mentions in several places that Allah breathed into the human beings “His Spirit””

      You are still dodging. Your own quote contradicts your claim – it says clearly that allah breathed “HIS” spirit into maryam. You’ve changed the words of the quran.

      If you believe that allah’s spirit is separate from allah, then you have committed shirk. Or, are you really trying to tell me that allah created his spirit?

      Allah’s spirit must be eternal, else allah is not eternal and if his eternal spirit enters every human being, then you deny one of the fundamental tenets of islam – that god cannot enter creation because something about the finite and infinite not being able to exist within the same reality.

      Dude, you are funny – you have completely blasphemed.

      Like

    • //Allah’s spirit must be eternal, else allah is not eternal and if his eternal spirit enters every human being, then you deny one of the fundamental tenets of islam //

      Then it makes all of us ‘god’ then, that is a patently false reasoning.

      Like

    • Eric bin Kisam

      “Then it makes all of us ‘god’ then, that is a patently false reasoning.”

      This makes no sense at all. Not only have you blasphemed by dividing allah from his spirit, you are claiming that his spirit is a creation, and that his straightforward words don’t mean what they obviously do mean.

      When the quran speaks of allah breathing “HIS” spirit into maryam, it means “HIS” spirit, not someone else’s and certainly not some other divine spirit that possesses people.

      You are simply confused abvout the nature of your own god and the theology of islam.

      Like

    • Spirit from Allah is breathed in every human being, not only to prophet Jesus (p). The Qur’an mentions in several places that Allah breathed into the human beings “His Spirit”. It does not make us gods sorry.

      Read the Qur’an in its entirety and take off your polytheistic glasses.

      Like

  4. Trey, that is not accurate. Although I am Jewish and we didn’t accept that interpretation of what happened to Jesus. that observation is not true regardless. For the Torah says of Adam,
    “then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. (Gen. 2:7) would you say Adam was divine?

    Liked by 3 people

    • Hi Mozer G
      And secondly would a Muslim say it was Gabriel that was breathed into Adam? They are the ones that Gabriel is the spirit of Allah.

      Like

    • Mozer

      No it does not mean that adam was divine, but it does mean that the infinite spirit of god can enter creation and infuse human flesh without god losing his powers. This supports the doctrine of the incarnation.

      Taken to its logical conclusion, Eric’s argument would lead to allah’s spirit entering human beings and then dying because the human dies.

      The christian doctrine of the triune god resolves this problem – god can exist in different forms at the same time without the loss of his power. He can control his power and refrain from using it.

      Your question is a greater problem for Eric and the other muslims here – if god’s spirit enters adam or maryam, then it has a beginning according to their reasoning.

      then again, is the “breath of life” the same as “god’s spirit”? either way, the quran contradicts Eric’s.

      Like

    • no i doesnt. it contradicts the trinity. if god’s spirit doesnt “die” as you would call it. then adam and jesus are identical and you say that by adam it died and b jesus it didnt. eric and i believe that god’s spirit gives life to all of creation it doesnt make the oceans divine. by the word of Jehovah The heavens have been made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host. [psalms 33] when someone dies it is because God’s spirit departed from him and what was left was a dead soul. God’s spirit is life, it never dies. the body it gives life to dies and the spirit goes back to its source…

      Liked by 1 person

    • You are wrong to suggest the neshamah נְשָׁמָה is actually God himself in Genesis 2:7.

      The neshamah is the ‘breath of life’ or soul that God breathed into the Adam. The arabic term is nafs (نفس). All living people must possess this neshamah (once it departs our body we are dead) but it does not mean we are all ‘gods’ and it does not make Adam any different with Jesus and the rest of humankind as Mozer correctly pointed out.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Mozer

      I think you might be misunderstanding the muslim position – allah cannot enter creation. Unless allah’s spirit is separate from him then it is impossible for it to exist separate from him. Do you see the problem?

      If you say that allah’s spirit enter creation, then it must be separate from allah because he cannot do such a thing because – as muslims argue – the infinite cannot enter the finite world. they call it a logical contradiction. This means that allah’s spirit is created, which is absurd.

      Like

    • Where is in the TaNaKH which say God is a spirit? God can give spirit of life, yes, but God is not a spirit an sich.

      Your concept of God is absurd as if God is like a Casper who are wandering around , entering and exiting people body at will. You are associating God to His creation. A blasphemy.

      Like

    • Eric bin Kisam

      “Where is in the TaNaKH which say God is a spirit? God can give spirit of life, yes, but God is not a spirit an sich.

      Your concept of God is absurd as if God is like a Casper who are wandering around , entering and exiting people body at will. You are associating God to His creation. A blasphemy.”

      Your own holy book say that allah has a spirit – do you disagree with the holy quran? You are the one claiming that allah’s self-created spirit possesses all human beings like a poltergeist – you just said that in the comments above.

      You even said that his spirit enters humans and leaves them – how confusing is your religion.

      Like

    • //Your own holy book say that allah has a spirit – do you disagree with the holy quran? //

      You are such an interesting person Trey, where is written in the Qur’an that Allah has a spirit or even Allah is a spirit, this is news to me?

      Also I ask for evidence where is in the TaNaKH which say: God is a spirit?

      God can give spirit of life, yes, so the “spirit” (Ar. nafs نفس or Heb. neshamah נְשָׁמָה ) comes from God. All living people must possess this “spirit” inside them for them to live. But God is not a “spirit” itself.

      Like

    • Eric

      You are exceeding the limits and changing the eternal words of allah. Should I believe you or the clear words of your quran when it speaks about allah’s spirit?

      Like

    • So not only you believe in 3 gods but now you admit there are countless gods as we are all gods. Amazing

      Like

    • Burhanuddin1
      Are you serious? Cant be Jesus Christ. According to you Jesus Christ is the incarnated 2nd person of the trinity.That incarnation took place at a certain point in time hundreds of years after Abraham’s death.

      Where did you see me say Genesis 18:1 The Lord appeared to Abraham…was Jesus? Which is why I asked you the question as to who it is that appeared as a man to Abraham.

      Like

    • Eric

      You have done nothing but dodge since you posted these sorry excuse for an argument against the deity of christ. Even worse, you have committed shirk just to hide the fact that you are confused by islamic theology.

      And now you are trying to deflect attention away from your embarrassing errors by making these absurd claims against me. Be a man – admit you bit off more than you can chew when you tried to reason logically.

      Like

    • Shirk is associating partners with God, like believing such god the daddy, god the kid and god the ghost. Muslims believe only One God. Sorry you dont seem to understand this basic concept.

      Liked by 1 person

  5. LOL its arguments like these that make us LAUGH OUT LOUD. I hope you used this one in your how to do Dawah lol.

    Like

  6. Hi
    Where do you read that Jesus had a beginnings?

    Why are you putting Arabic alongside Hebrew and Aramaic…where was Arabic in Jesus day I guess it didn’t even exist…please prove me wrong.

    Like

    • Have you not read Mark, Matthew, and Luke as they all testify Jesus had a beginning. John tells us that the word of God became flesh but that on its own hardly demands we believe Jesus of Nazareth pre-existed.

      Liked by 2 people

    • defendchrist

      Anything that was “begotten” has a beginning. Any Son/son has a beginning and any baby that comes out of a woman’s womb has a beginning, any man or human being has a beginning etc. It is only one God of Abraham who is alone that has no beginning.

      Jesus is more qualified and a candidate with begging like us all.

      Thanks.

      Liked by 3 people

    • In response to Intellect

      ‘Anything that was “begotten” has a beginning.’ If you mean a beginning in time, then Christian orthodoxy would say this was not the kind of begetting that happened to the Son. The Son was eternally begotten of the Father. The Father precedes the Son logically, but not temporally/chronologically.

      To try and give an example – let us say there is a moment in the wedding ceremony when a bachelor ceases to be a bachelor, and becomes a married man.There is no time difference between this moment (say the signing of the register) and the status of the man changing – as soon as the former happens, at that very moment the effect (the change in the man’s status) follows. Similarly, there is no time that elapses in the Father generating the Son – it is logical, not chronologically. And it eternally was thus.

      I would be interested to hear your, or anyone’s, thoughts.

      Blessings

      Like

    • Richardzetter

      You said;

      richardzetter

      September 5, 2016 • 9:14 pm

      In response to Intellect

      ‘Anything that was “begotten” has a beginning.’ If you mean a beginning in time, then Christian orthodoxy would say this was not the kind of begetting that happened to the Son. The Son was eternally begotten of the Father. The Father precedes the Son logically, but not temporally/chronologically.

      I say;
      I am sorry there is holes in your philosophy.
      Begotten, Begotten, Begotten cannot be eternal. Anything that is begotten is not eternal. The Father precedes the Son? You are talking of two entities here. One entity precedes the other entity and if they are God then they became 2 Gods. Unless you say the Son/son is not God in which case Jesus is not God and case closed.

      If Jesus is God and another God who is his Father precedes him, then we have 2 Gods and is polytheism and against the Bible. Trinitarians can cry and say “that is not what we mean”, “We do not worship 2 Gods”, “We are not saying they are 2 Gods” etc. just like any idol worshiper will argue that the idols he worships are just lesser or intermediary to the one God.

      Idol worshipers, Mormons, Rastafarians etc. do claim they worship only one God but Trinitarian Christians will not accept that or buy that.

      How then will the Trinitarian Christians want us to accept or buy that, one God precedes the other God but it is the same God? It is unacceptable just like any idol worshiper clearly having more than one God but claims he worships only one God.

      God cannot be begotten and any one who is a Son/son is not God. God is not Son/son to anyone.

      Mr. Zetter, you are a philosopher because your arguments are philosophical arguments and so I want to brainstorm this with you.

      You also talked about the same person who is bachelor but changed to married. It means he changed but the Bible said “God does not change”. Do you want the verse?

      It means the bachelor had a beginning as married. So you mean to tell me God at a point in time had a beginning? Mr. Zetter? Some 2000 years ago God had a beginning?

      Precedes is what it means. Do you mean to tell me precede is not precede? Begotten is not made?, Death is existence, God is man?

      Let a Muslim says a man is God or a dead man is not dead precede means something different etc. and the Trinitarians would have crucified all Muslims and say “you Muslims, who gave you the authority to take any word and change it to your whims and caprice?”

      If we can all have chance to take any word and change it for our theology like the Trinitarians, this world would not have been a truthful world.

      Thanks.

      Like

    • In response to Intellect

      Christian orthodoxy would want to say that ‘begetting’ means deriving from in some sense – so the Son is begotten of the essence of the Father. But such derivation is eternal. Perhaps the Christian definition of begetting is different from a secular/non-Christian usage – which is fine, as long as everyone recognises the difference.

      When I say I am not a philosopher, I mean I am not trained in it, nor do I consider myself particularly good at it. But yes, at the moment we are having a philosophical discussion.

      My analogy of the bachelor was not to make the point that a bachelor becomes a married man, and therefore God became God – all I meant was that the action that causes the transition logically precedes but is instantaneous with the effect it produces. I use this as an example of a logical, yet non-chronological, form of causation.

      You raise other points about the Trinity. I do not seek to get into a discussion of the Trinity here, but suffice to say, my own understanding of the Trinity is that in some way God is three, but that in some way he is one. I am committed to monotheism, as my scriptures insists I should be.

      I may not reply again due to time constraints – but thank you for your thoughts.

      Like

  7. Jesus was nothing but a slave, in need of food and water and the help of God like Eric, Paul and David Woods. He was nothing more than a mere human. And the Cross-Worshipers will have to accept it.

    Like

  8. The Qur’an declares that Jesus (Isa) is eternal so for you to say that it doesn’t, you go against The Qur’an.

    Like

  9. Servent of jesus christ??!!!! What??!! Show me the verse in the Quran where Jesus (AS) is described as eternal??!!
    By the same token, in the NT Jesus says ‘ If you worship me you will burn in hell’.

    Like

    • Hi Jacob
      Please quote me the verse that Jesus said that…is that a corrupted text you are quoting is it authentic?

      Furthermore can any Muslim let me know how many chromosomes Jesus has 23 or 46 in other words who provided the male side chromosomes?

      Like

  10. Thank you for your article Eric bin Kisam.

    Let’s say I accept everything you say up until the last paragraph; it is with this last paragraph I take issue.

    ‘Whereas Jesus (whom trinitarian believe a hybrid god-man) came into existence only in some 2.000 years ago. He was born of a woman and partaking of a flesh and blood nature just like any other human being. He has beginning therefore Jesus can not be God, the creator of the everything , the first and the last.’

    The humanity of Jesus did indeed come into existence only 2,000 years ago. There is no issue with his humanity having a beginning. The issue surely is whether Jesus’ divine nature had a beginning – orthodox Christianity would say it did not. Because Jesus’ divine nature is without beginning, therefore he can be God, the creator of everything. What do you think?

    Blessings

    Like

    • Hi Richard Z,

      Thank you for your comment.

      This is really difficult to accept especially as you may notice that  Jesus of the gospels was presented as human and his knowledge was essentially limited by human conditions. His divine works during his ministry by no mean unique compared to other hebrew prophets and biblical figures.

      Every attempt to explain how Jesus is somehow  a “God in human flesh” is never convincing in my view. There is no way in the universe that the eternal is the temporal, the infinite is the finite, and the divine is human.

      Also I don’t understand how you reconcile the idea of separating Jesus humanity and divinity and yet at the same time believing that god-man person in Jesus is somehow inseparabe union. Who was then, you believe, the person who “died” on the cross according to your theology (which we do not accept but that’s for other discussion)? was it a mere human Jesus? if yes , it means you believe in a human sacrifice while the Bible makes it quite clear that God hates human sacrifice. It is all really confusing and God is not the author of confusion

      I truly believe we should back to the genuine monotheism as taught by patriarch Abraham. and accepting Jesus who he really is, one of wonder of  God’s creation, a inspiring holy man, a prophet of God. This should be the easiest way to free people from this muddled state of trinitarian confusion.

      Peace

      Like

    • Hi Eric,

      My issue is not whether or not Jesus is divine according to the Gospels. It is whether, if we assume that he is divine, whether this fits with the rest of your original post, which is how God has no beginning.

      I’m not saying the eternal ‘is’ the temporal, etc. I’m saying in some way, the eternal entered into a temporal body.

      I just say in some way Jesus was human, in some way he was divine. In terms of how the two fit together, I affirm it bila kayf (sorry I may have spelt that wrong, I’m just writing it off the top of my head), because my scripture tells me too. I see no logical problem until I try and propose a precise mechanism of how it has happened – because I’m not sure God has revealed that to us.

      I would just stick to scripture, and say, for example, ‘Christ’ died for our sins (1 Cor 15.3).

      I see no muddled confusion, provided we do not affirm confidently anything the Bible does not state – though we may freely speculate beyond that, provided we acknowledge it is speculation.

      My main problem with your article was that you spent a long time arguing, including from the original languages, and then just tacked on (perhaps even assumed) a small paragraph at the end about how Jesus came into existence. (Almost) No one is going to disagree with you on the fact God has no beginning, which is what you focused on – whereas the discussion we are having, about the nature of Jesus’ divinity and whether he had a beginning, is the real issue.

      Blessings.

      Like

    • Hi Richard,

      The bilaa kayfiyyati  بِلَا كَيْفِيَّةٍ  or “without (asking) how” as narrated in hadith and  laid down by classical Imams  is not the same with questioning how “a God and yet a man” , an immortal yet a mortal etc. in the person of Jesus, which in itself consist logical flaw.

      Muslims do  not believe in the  likening God to His creation, this concept is the Tasbeeh or Mujassimah,  but a few of the Qur’anic text seems to suggest anthropomorphism such like His Book,  The Hand, Hearing, Seeing. Some of early muslims attempted to give metaphorical interpretation (ta’weel ) to these texts that God has not created Adam with His “Hands” but rather here is His Power or Quwwa. Some classical Islamic scholars warns against this methodology and define a strict rule that muslim must not attempt any interpretation on the “how” (the Kayfiyah) of this anthropomorphism  of God, but at the same time also prohibit them to think any resemblance or likening of God to His creation. Instead, just leave what God has revealed in the Qur’an as it is. This is the “bilaa kayfa”. 

       

      Take for example the position of the Qur’an  being the world of God the Kalamullah. 

      When we find in a narration in a hadith that

      الْقُرْآنَ كَلَامُ اللَّهِ غير مخلوق

      “The Qur’an is the Word of God, not a creation”

      This is the as far as we can say about the Qur’an.  We can not define any understanding beyond this statement: such as “ The Qur’an  is eternal like God”or “The Qur’an  is same substance like God” or even “The Qur’an  is God Himself”.  This is strictly not allowed but in itself don’t constitutes logical contradiction

      The attribute of no beginning is not shareable quality with those who has beginning.  We can not say that God is infinite but yet he is finite.  We can only say God is infinite but His creations (humans) are finite

      I offer the following syllogisms:

      All humans have  beginning.
      Jesus has a beginning (According to the Bible).
      Hence, Jesus was human.

      God does not have beginning
      Jesus has a beginning  (According to the syllogism above).
      Hence, Jesus was not God.

      These simple logical exercises show that there is an irresolvable logical contradiction in the belief that Jesus is God. This is not the same as the “bilaa kayfa” .early muslims use  against those who tried to redefine  Qur’anic text beyond what is it actually written.

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    • Nice point richardzetter

      God bless

      Like

    • Excuse me, Richard, but I guarantee for you that Nabeel Qureshi got it wrong when he tried to use Islamic belief about Allah’s attributes. We say ( Bila kayf) , which means we don’t make Allah like any thing although we understand the ( meaning) of his attributes. For example, We affirm that Allah hears, yet we don’t say Allah hears by ears like us. That doesn’t have any thing – by any meaning- to do with ( god – man) problem that you have.

      Like

    • Hi Eric,

      Thanks for your thoughts.

      As for bila kayfiyatti, my use of this is not just about content (the nature of God), but epistemological – that is, on something that I do not understand, I can appeal to divine revelation.

      I guess the difference between us is that I don’t see the Trinity belief as being illogical, at least how I formulate it – God is in some way one God, but he is in some way three (Father, Son and Spirit).

      As for Jesus – only his humanity has a beginning, not his divinity.

      I may not reply further due to time considerations, but thank you for your thoughts.

      Like

    • With the Name of Allah

      Hi Richard,

      Thanks again for your reply.

      While I  must admit that I am not a philosopher  while  I may agree  with you that the bila kayfiyatti, can be used when divine revelation can  be easily understood. but I dont subscribe the notion that belief is in someway independent of logical evidence or even  claim that it is unnecessary. Islam epistemology contend that there must be empirical and logical evidences (thus the term signs or Aayaat) to ground belief in God, as I wrote in this post the existence of Godly being  Al-Wujud al-Dzâti الوجود الذاتي  must be something inherent and not acquired one from anywhere. This type of existence applies only to God (Glorified be He) and it is one of His Attributes, as His begining-less existence  is in accordance to God’s positve quality (Nafsiyah)   نفسية  as opposed to  the illogicality and impossibility  (Salbiyah  سلبية) of the  non-existence or a beginning-ness (to put it that way) of God   in Islamic theology.

      The way you attempt to separate Jesus divinity (Ar: Lasut) and humanity (Ar: Nasut) is an evidence to me that there is no such a thing like a hypostatic union the way unitarianism want it to be. Hybrid godman Jesus was created at some point in time, and his humanity were exactly the same like the rest of us (hungry, erring,fallible etc.)  and God is still God in full glory in Heaven. Also when Jesus die, he did not really die, because it does mean the cessation of his life, as his soul continue to life. that what Trinitarians try to formulate the immortality of divinity.  That really do not make Jesus special at all because all human have God inside of them and their soul continue to exist when they die.

      Like

  11. Hi Eric bin Kisam
    You said…
    We muslims never fell into idolatry in believing that this “word” of God is actually God himself who roam the world among Abraham descendants.

    Why Prophet Muhammad change the direction of prayer towards the Kaaba when it was still used as a pagan shrine? And how on earth did the so called “house of Allah” end up as a pagan shrine.

    Why pray towards Jerusalem in the first place?

    What is the difference between a Roman Catholic praying towards a cross or statute and a Muslim praying towards the Kaaba and touching and kissing the black stone.

    Both for me are acts of idolatry!

    Like

    • “Why Prophet Muhammad change the direction of prayer towards the Kaaba when it was still used as a pagan shrine?”

      Short answer: He didn’t, God commanded him to in the Qur’an. cf Surah 2

      Because the Kaaba was originally a place of worship built by Prophets Abraham and Ismael as a place of prayer and pilgrimage. The inhabitants used it as a place to house their statues of various Gods and Goddesses. The purpose of this act is as a symbol of unity for the entire Muslim community. It is a sacred site.

      “What is the difference between a Roman Catholic praying towards a cross or statute and a Muslim praying towards the Kaaba and touching and kissing the black stone.”

      Your mistake is in assuming that when someone prays in the direction of something then they must therefore be worshipping that object, by that standard most Christians must be worshipping their bedrooms! Those shameless heathens! But seriously why do you believe this about worship?

      “Both for me are acts of idolatry!”

      That’s because you don’t understand what idolatry is!

      Liked by 2 people

    • Hi Patrice
      Sorry but praying towards the Kaaba and kissing the black stone is idolatry!

      This is the problem with most of the Muslims on this blog they think they are the only ones that know anything, that is just your arrogant pride coming out and I have only asked you several questions.

      So let me ask one of them again hopefully I will get a straight answer without you trying to generalise Christians.

      Question…how did the “house of Allah” become a pagan shrine?

      Like

    • DC who gave you the right to demand answers to questions? Who do you think YOU are?

      Like

    • Hi Paul
      What are you referring to? Demanding answers? I thought you guys wanted to people to one day convert to Islam what’s the problem with asking questions?

      You and everyone else have the right not to answer and yes I know it’s your blog and its not speakers corner.
      I’m not swearing or verbally abusing anyone.

      I asked Patrice how did the house of Allah become a pagan shrine a genuine question, and as a sincere person I have had many things said to me and not retaliated by name calling.

      Is there some sort of restriction on the kind of questions you can ask? How does a person learn without asking questions.

      Like

    • I think i’ve already answered your question. Later generations corrupted its usage by housing statues of their gods up until the time of Muhammad. The kaaba was initially under the protection of Ishmail but even during that time those among him who were polytheists used it for this purpose.

      But this is besides the point as the real issue is your charge of idolatry. Can uou demonstrate why you think this is the case? I have yet to see a coherent response to this question.

      Like

    • Bismillah,

      dc,

      Muslims never picture the Kaaba when they pray, even when they pray in Mecca inside the Holy Mosque. Our heart are directed to the One True omnipresent unseen God. Kaaba is just man made structure which happen to be inside the mosque

      While you as Christian, when you pray, your mentality can not get rid of this nice nordic brunette folk with blue eyes smiling at you, hoping to hear your prayers.

      Idolatry is in the heart.

      Liked by 2 people

  12. Hi Eric bin Kisam

    Sura 10:18
    And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, “These are our intercessors with Allah ” Say, “Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on

    Yet in the Hadith

    Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar
    The Prophet said, “A man keeps on asking others for something till he comes on the Day of Resurrection without any piece of flesh on his face.” The Prophet added, “On the Day of Resurrection, the Sun will come near (to, the people) to such an extent that the sweat will reach up to the middle of the ears, so, when all the people are in that state, they will ask Adam for help, and then Moses, and then Muhammad (p.b.u.h) .” The sub-narrator added “Muhammad will intercede with Allah to judge amongst the people. He will proceed on till he will hold the ring of the door (of Paradise) and then Allah will exalt him to Maqam Mahmud (the privilege of intercession, etc.). And all the people of the gathering will send their praises to Allah.

    [Bukhari, 2: 24: 553

    Now correct me if I’m wrong but how can Muhammad be interceding for people alongside Allah…is this not shirk?

    Like

    • No that’s not the correct undertanding, those Prophets “help” the believers in a way as their leader who are responsible with their actions , God Almigthy alone who will be the Judge and decide the fate.. And that happen only after all people are ressurected from the dead in the day reckoning.

      Like

  13. Richard

    You said;

    I guess the difference between us is that I don’t see the Trinity belief as being illogical, at least how I formulate it – God is in some way one God, but he is in some way three (Father, Son and Spirit).

    As for Jesus – only his humanity has a beginning, not his divinity.

    I may not reply further due to time considerations, but thank you for your thoughts.

    I say;
    “God is in some way one God, but he is in some way three (Father, Son and Spirit).”
    -Richard Zetter

    My dear Richard, in some way 3 what? Gods? You see you have hidden the illogicalities by not saying whether the 3 are Gods or not.

    If the 3 are persons and not God, then why call Jesus God? when he is a person but not God? If you say Jesus is God, then the counting begins i.e. Jesus God number 1.

    How about calling the Father God if the Father is only a person but not God? Calling a person who is not God but person as God is illogical. If you call the Father God, then the counting continue as the Father = God number 2

    The Holy Spirit God number 3 and one will count 3 Gods. Trinitarians will insist that they do not worship 3 Gods but they do just like most idol worshipers will say they do not believe they worship more Gods but only one God will representatives or lesser Gods on earth. Some like Mormons and Rastafarians and Hindus will say a person like Haile Selaissie or Sai Baba is God incarnate but they do worship God.

    Richard, you keep saying that is what your scripture said or that is how you see it, this blog is a critical thinking blog and the fact is that any rational person will count 3 Gods in Trinity.

    If you want us to believe your God as one because you do not see any illogicalities in it but a rational person can count 3 Gods and see illogicalities of calling them one God, then you must accept the same claim by Rastafarians who worship a person they considered has taken human form and therefore God Man.

    If you accept that and any God Men out there, then we will have many Gods and that is against the Bible because Bible clearly said God is one.

    The word begotten means to have sex and procreate. To change word and keep changing words to mean different thing to the whims and caprice of Trinitarians is unfortunate and will not be accepted.

    If a religious group keep having sex with peoples wives and say sex with peoples wives to them means blessing i.e. changing the word sex to the whims and having sex with peoples wives will you accept that sex with peoples wives is blessings? Some Church pastors do this.

    Begotten is begotten. We cannot accept anyone changing it differently, 3 is 3 not 1, persons is person and God is not 3 persons, death is death and God does not die, immortal does not mean mortal i.e. God does not die etc.

    What changing words is that? By Trinitarian Christians?

    Thanks.

    Like

    • Richard Zetter

      You said;
      I’m not saying the eternal ‘is’ the temporal, etc. I’m saying in some way, the eternal entered into a temporal body.

      I just say in some way Jesus was human, in some way he was divine. In terms of how the two fit together, I affirm it bila kayf (sorry I may have spelt that wrong, I’m just writing it off the top of my head), because my scripture tells me too. I see no logical problem until I try and propose a precise mechanism of how it has happened – because I’m not sure God has revealed that to us.

      I say;
      In some way Emperor Haile Selaissie is a human, in some way he was divine.
      In some way Emperor Sai Baba of Hindus is a human, in some way he was divine etc. we have a lot of God Men in the system as your God.

      Do you agree with them that their God Men are God? and the counting of Gods and God Men continue as you believe?

      In voodoo idol worship, the eternal entered into a temporal body of a snake and the voodoos worship snake just like how you believed in some way the eternal can enter into a temporal body. You may not believe in their God, but you share the same idea of who God is, just like me a Muslim share the same idea of who God is, as one God as the Bible said and nothing is like Him or can be compare to him with Jews and Unitarian Christians.

      My God is the same as Jews and Unitarian Christian God and your God Richard who in some ways can enter into temporal body is the same as voodoo God by entering into temporal body.

      Richard, it is impossible for something which is not temporal to enter into temporal body. It is an impossibility like the square circle or married bachelor. Permanent or eternal is the opposite of temporal or beginning.

      Anything that has no beginning can not have a beginning, so it is illogical to say God has a beginning. If you are talking of God part and human part, you are talking about oil and water which cannot be mixed because they are different. When you mix them, the oil residue will be on top of the water.

      God cannot mix with human. If even God mix with human, the human cannot be God and therefore the crucified human on the cross is not God and God did not die for anyone’s sins.

      God Man, or Man Car etc. are impossibility because they are 2 different and entirely opposite things can in no way shape or form be the same thing.

      Let me grant you that Jesus is both God and Man for argument sake. Why did Jesus not know the day of judgement? If he is both God and man at the same time? At least his divine part must have told him the day of judgement or Jesus must not tell lies but say

      “I know the day of judgement as God Man but will not provide it for now” but Jesus said clearly he does not know the day of judgement but another entity knows that. So the God Man is just a conjecture and Jesus does not support he is God Man.

      Thanks.

      Like

  14. Richard Zetter

    You said;
    As for Jesus – only his humanity has a beginning, not his divinity.

    I say;
    God said He is one and He has no beginning. You are saying “only Gods humanity has a beginning”. Where in the Bible does God said “He has a humanity in Him”? ” I Yahweh, only my humanity part has a beginning”? “I Yahweh, I am God Man, 3 Persons, I am somewhat 3 persons”? etc.

    You see, you are making up things and it is not good to put words in Gods mouth.

    Let me tell you what God clearly said and it is irrefutable;

    “there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
    “Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
    “Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
    “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
    “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
    “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
    “For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
    “Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
    “You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth.” 2 Kings 19:15
    “O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
    “You alone [bad] are Yahweh.” Nehemiah 9:6
    “For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
    “You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” Isaiah 37:20
    “Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10

    No where in the Bible did God say He has beginning. Even if God has humanity, that humanity cannot have beginning because God has no beginning and He is One.

    One person or being i.e. God or divinity has no beginning but another person i.e. human or man has beginning? Does that make sense or logical, No it does not make sense or logical because every 100% human being is a being and a person.

    God is a being and some say since He is a being then God is a person. You have 2 beings/persons in Jesus Christ alone. You can say “That is not what we believe” and it is like idol worshipers saying they do not worship different Gods but one God and the images they worship are persons i.e. Mormons, Hindus, Rastafarians etc. believed they worship one God in so many persons.

    It is not logical.

    Thanks.

    Like

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