Indeed we can find this same statement in the gospels.
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’- Mark 12:29 – 30
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'” – Matthew 4:10
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'” – Luke 4:8
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. – John 4:23
So we find that Jesus taught his followers to worship God, this is why when Muslims are asked ‘do you believe in Jesus?’ the reply can be a loud amen!
Huh? Why do I need to establish a tradition for you? I can simply follow Paul’s reasoning and say that God doesn’t need an isnad. Apparently that is a suitable argument for muslims.
Because according to orthodox christian teaching God didn’t reveal the bible directly but rather people wrote these books so therefore the question as to the origin and reliability of the tradition is necessary for me to take your argument seriously as we don’t any books written by Jesus but only accounts of his life written after his death.
The Qur’an is different from the bible because it claims to be directly from God, one can reject a portion of the bible that does not come from God if proven to be fabricated such as the various manuscript corruptions.
Yes, some of christian scripture was written by people and some was dictated. But all is believed to be God-breathed. So by muslim resaoning I can simply say “God doesn’t need a tradition” and that should suffice.
You seem to want to apply historical criticism to the bible with disregard for divine intervention, yet never applying the same criteria to the koran.
I call your bluff. If you can show me the isnaad for isa in the koran, then, and only then, will I discuss historical criticism with you re the bible.
It wasn’t ‘some’ but rather all of the texts were written by people and none of them claim to be ‘God breathed’ that reference comes from 1 timothy a known forgery according to most NT scholars so i am not quick to accept its claim considering the author cannot even be honest about who they are in the first place.
As Paul and I have pointed out before, the Qur’an and the bible are not the same and therefore cannot have the same standards for judging their authenticity as the Qur’an comes from one source whereas the bible has many, the Qur’an claims to come from God whereas the gospels are merely the recollections of men none of whom provide a isnaad for their traditions.
This is the problem for you and this is why you cannot ask about an isnaad for the Qur’an because as Paul pointed out it only has God said…
You’re confusing. First, you appeal to Christian inspiration and now reject it completely. Second, you talked about the bible which does contain dictation but now have swapped to focus on the gospels. You jump around more than a Sufi Muslim does on a dance floor.
It doesn’t matter if you accept Christian doctrine. The point is Christians do. And they have every right to simply say God doesn’t need a tradition if that is how Muslims argue.
I don’t accept that muhammad met an angel in a cave before trying to kill himself, but apparently it’s ok for a Muslim simply to say God said it without need for proof?
Whether the bible has multiple human authors is irrelevant. Christians believe it has one divine author like you do for the Koran. So again, where is the isnaad to demonstrate isa said those things?
He didn’t. Never did. It’s muhammads fabrication and you are following conjecture
The only person who is confused is you Paulus. I never claimed any kind of inspiration of the bible where did you get that idea from? I referred to the gospels originally these are not dictated by God but rather according to the human authors.
My original question to you about the authenticity of the i am sayings and of the gospels as a whole still stands however.
Er yes. He called himself I AM. The Pharisees picked up stones to throw at him. Because they knew he was calling himself God.
At his trial he told the sandhedrin they would see him riding the clouds of heaven. A reference to Daniel 7. Again they knew he was calling himself God.
Neither of those two statements are proof, Jesus in johns gospel denies his divinity and describes God as seperate to himself take for example:
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. – John 14:28
regarding daniel you will need to clarify why that is proof of his divinity
Achilles, seems it’s gonna be interesting…..first things first, in what context did Jesus say “I Am” and how exactly is that a strong point for his “Divinity”?
“Neither of those two statements are proof, Jesus in johns gospel denies his divinity and describes God as seperate to himself take for example:
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. – John 14:28”
Cherry picking that in no way assails the trinitarian god.
John 14:10
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?
The claim that God became man is also an absurdity. It is not befitting of God to take on human characteristics because it means that the Creator has become His creation. However, the creation is a product of the creative act of the Creator. If the Creator became His creation, it would mean that the Creator created Himself, which is an obvious absurdity. To be created, He would first have to not exist, and, if He did not exist, how could He then create? Furthermore, if He were created, it would mean that He had a beginning, which also contradicts His being eternal. By definition creation is in need of a creator. For created beings to exist they must have a creator to bring them into existence. God cannot need a creator because God is the Creator. Thus, there is an obvious contradiction in terms. The claim that God became His creation implies that He would need a creator, which is a ludicrous concept. It contradicts the fundamental concept of God being uncreated, needing no creator and being the Creator.
” Man is a finite being (i.e., creation). Man is born, and he dies. These are characteristics which cannot be attributed to God because they equate Him with His creation. Therefore, God did not and will not ever become man. On the other hand, man also cannot become God. The created cannot become its own creator. The created at one time did not exist. It came into being by the creative act of a Creator who always existed. What is nonexistent cannot make itself exist ”
| Dr Bilal Philips| Did God Become Man | Page 13-14 |
(PhD Theology, University of Wales, U.K.)
“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.”I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
Isaiah 43:10-11
– God is the only savior 👉 Isaiah 43:10-11
– God do not change 👉 Malachi 3:6
– God is ONE 👉 Mark 12:29
– God is not a man 👉 Numbers 23:19
Where does John 1:1 say Jesus is God? But John 14:28 declares the Father is greater than him (Jesus) how can the Father be greater than the Son if they are both God you are reduced to saying God is greater than God. An absurdity cannot be the right way to talk about the creator (if he exists). Worship does not necessarily mean being honored as God, worship can also refer to revering a distinguished person.
Paulus
Why are the I AM sayings as God intended, how do you know? As i’ve said to you before the source of this is a text written by a human being therefore if i am to believe these statements are authentic to Jesus we need to know where they came from and why this source is reliable. Islam has nothing to do with criticising elements of johns gospel. You still need to proove these sayings are reliable.
Joel
Christians claim that the holy spirit dwells inside of them, the holy spirit is God according to trinitarians if God dwells inside of human beings and this doesn’t make them God why would the father dwelling inside of Jesus make him God?
“Christians claim that the holy spirit dwells inside of them, the holy spirit is God according to trinitarians if God dwells inside of human beings and this doesn’t make them God why would the father dwelling inside of Jesus make him God?”
Where does jesus say the father “dwells” inside of him? The clear reading is that he and the father are of the same essence.
Clearly, christians saying the holy spirit indwells is different to jesus claiming to be of divine essence. You have made a category error.
I was also hoping that you address the point I made to Paulus – which NT/jesus scholar looks to the quran as a source to investigate the historical jesus?
My sense is that there absolutely none who take the quran seriously when it comes to the historical jesus.
Blogging Theology 
In both the Bible and the Qur’an, Prophet Jesus (as) calls us to Unitarianism and the straight path!
Those who are true believers in God’s message to us will follow Jesus wherever he leads them……even if into Islam!
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Indeed we can find this same statement in the gospels.
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’- Mark 12:29 – 30
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'” – Matthew 4:10
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'” – Luke 4:8
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. – John 4:23
So we find that Jesus taught his followers to worship God, this is why when Muslims are asked ‘do you believe in Jesus?’ the reply can be a loud amen!
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AMEEEN!!
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Where is the isnaad to demonstrate that Jesus said that?
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God does not need an isnad. He speaks for himself.
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By that reasoning you would have no basis for rejecting the I Am statements then?
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No because we need to establish whether such a tradition is valid. So Paulus where does this source originate and is that source reliable?
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Huh? Why do I need to establish a tradition for you? I can simply follow Paul’s reasoning and say that God doesn’t need an isnad. Apparently that is a suitable argument for muslims.
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Patrobin.
Where is the tradition of narration to prove that Isa said what you quote in the Koran?
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Because according to orthodox christian teaching God didn’t reveal the bible directly but rather people wrote these books so therefore the question as to the origin and reliability of the tradition is necessary for me to take your argument seriously as we don’t any books written by Jesus but only accounts of his life written after his death.
The Qur’an is different from the bible because it claims to be directly from God, one can reject a portion of the bible that does not come from God if proven to be fabricated such as the various manuscript corruptions.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, some of christian scripture was written by people and some was dictated. But all is believed to be God-breathed. So by muslim resaoning I can simply say “God doesn’t need a tradition” and that should suffice.
You seem to want to apply historical criticism to the bible with disregard for divine intervention, yet never applying the same criteria to the koran.
I call your bluff. If you can show me the isnaad for isa in the koran, then, and only then, will I discuss historical criticism with you re the bible.
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It wasn’t ‘some’ but rather all of the texts were written by people and none of them claim to be ‘God breathed’ that reference comes from 1 timothy a known forgery according to most NT scholars so i am not quick to accept its claim considering the author cannot even be honest about who they are in the first place.
As Paul and I have pointed out before, the Qur’an and the bible are not the same and therefore cannot have the same standards for judging their authenticity as the Qur’an comes from one source whereas the bible has many, the Qur’an claims to come from God whereas the gospels are merely the recollections of men none of whom provide a isnaad for their traditions.
This is the problem for you and this is why you cannot ask about an isnaad for the Qur’an because as Paul pointed out it only has God said…
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You’re confusing. First, you appeal to Christian inspiration and now reject it completely. Second, you talked about the bible which does contain dictation but now have swapped to focus on the gospels. You jump around more than a Sufi Muslim does on a dance floor.
It doesn’t matter if you accept Christian doctrine. The point is Christians do. And they have every right to simply say God doesn’t need a tradition if that is how Muslims argue.
I don’t accept that muhammad met an angel in a cave before trying to kill himself, but apparently it’s ok for a Muslim simply to say God said it without need for proof?
Whether the bible has multiple human authors is irrelevant. Christians believe it has one divine author like you do for the Koran. So again, where is the isnaad to demonstrate isa said those things?
He didn’t. Never did. It’s muhammads fabrication and you are following conjecture
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The only person who is confused is you Paulus. I never claimed any kind of inspiration of the bible where did you get that idea from? I referred to the gospels originally these are not dictated by God but rather according to the human authors.
My original question to you about the authenticity of the i am sayings and of the gospels as a whole still stands however.
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Paulus
“Where is the isnaad to demonstrate that Jesus said that?”
Devastating point.
No scholar of the life of jesus takes the quran seriously for the historical jesus. None would affirm that jesus said these words.
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The I Am statements are as God intended. He speaks for himself and does not need approval from muhammadism.
That should suffice, no?
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http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/thompson/where_i_am_god.html
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the article proves my point: Jesus did not say he was God.
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i’m not sure how this article overturns the words of Jesus could you tell us why we should ignore his message?
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Er yes. He called himself I AM. The Pharisees picked up stones to throw at him. Because they knew he was calling himself God.
At his trial he told the sandhedrin they would see him riding the clouds of heaven. A reference to Daniel 7. Again they knew he was calling himself God.
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Neither of those two statements are proof, Jesus in johns gospel denies his divinity and describes God as seperate to himself take for example:
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. – John 14:28
regarding daniel you will need to clarify why that is proof of his divinity
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Achilles, seems it’s gonna be interesting…..first things first, in what context did Jesus say “I Am” and how exactly is that a strong point for his “Divinity”?
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@ patrobin. John 1:1 is proof that Jesus is God but i guess you will keep changing the goal posts as we say here.
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@ shaad. I AM is the name God used when he appeared to Moses in the burning bush.
@ patrobin. Jesus never denied his divinity. He accepted worship.
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pat
“Neither of those two statements are proof, Jesus in johns gospel denies his divinity and describes God as seperate to himself take for example:
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. – John 14:28”
Cherry picking that in no way assails the trinitarian god.
John 14:10
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The claim that God became man is also an absurdity. It is not befitting of God to take on human characteristics because it means that the Creator has become His creation. However, the creation is a product of the creative act of the Creator. If the Creator became His creation, it would mean that the Creator created Himself, which is an obvious absurdity. To be created, He would first have to not exist, and, if He did not exist, how could He then create? Furthermore, if He were created, it would mean that He had a beginning, which also contradicts His being eternal. By definition creation is in need of a creator. For created beings to exist they must have a creator to bring them into existence. God cannot need a creator because God is the Creator. Thus, there is an obvious contradiction in terms. The claim that God became His creation implies that He would need a creator, which is a ludicrous concept. It contradicts the fundamental concept of God being uncreated, needing no creator and being the Creator.
” Man is a finite being (i.e., creation). Man is born, and he dies. These are characteristics which cannot be attributed to God because they equate Him with His creation. Therefore, God did not and will not ever become man. On the other hand, man also cannot become God. The created cannot become its own creator. The created at one time did not exist. It came into being by the creative act of a Creator who always existed. What is nonexistent cannot make itself exist ”
| Dr Bilal Philips| Did God Become Man | Page 13-14 |
(PhD Theology, University of Wales, U.K.)
“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.”I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
Isaiah 43:10-11
– God is the only savior 👉 Isaiah 43:10-11
– God do not change 👉 Malachi 3:6
– God is ONE 👉 Mark 12:29
– God is not a man 👉 Numbers 23:19
LikeLiked by 2 people
achilles
Where does John 1:1 say Jesus is God? But John 14:28 declares the Father is greater than him (Jesus) how can the Father be greater than the Son if they are both God you are reduced to saying God is greater than God. An absurdity cannot be the right way to talk about the creator (if he exists). Worship does not necessarily mean being honored as God, worship can also refer to revering a distinguished person.
Paulus
Why are the I AM sayings as God intended, how do you know? As i’ve said to you before the source of this is a text written by a human being therefore if i am to believe these statements are authentic to Jesus we need to know where they came from and why this source is reliable. Islam has nothing to do with criticising elements of johns gospel. You still need to proove these sayings are reliable.
Joel
Christians claim that the holy spirit dwells inside of them, the holy spirit is God according to trinitarians if God dwells inside of human beings and this doesn’t make them God why would the father dwelling inside of Jesus make him God?
LikeLiked by 1 person
pat
“Christians claim that the holy spirit dwells inside of them, the holy spirit is God according to trinitarians if God dwells inside of human beings and this doesn’t make them God why would the father dwelling inside of Jesus make him God?”
Where does jesus say the father “dwells” inside of him? The clear reading is that he and the father are of the same essence.
Clearly, christians saying the holy spirit indwells is different to jesus claiming to be of divine essence. You have made a category error.
I was also hoping that you address the point I made to Paulus – which NT/jesus scholar looks to the quran as a source to investigate the historical jesus?
My sense is that there absolutely none who take the quran seriously when it comes to the historical jesus.
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