The Christian dilemma

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Categories: Bible, God, Jesus

45 replies

  1. Exactly hahaha!

    Actually though it’s more complicated than that. I read in the book “How Jesus became God” that in actual fact, originally the early christians believed that Jesus was exalted to the station of Godhood after the crucifixion. So basically, they believed he was a totally human Messiah, and then after death was exalted to sit by God’s right Hand as His Son.

    Over the centuries this creed then transformed into believing that Jesus was God even while he was alive on Earth. But this post highlights the great disconnect the christians have with the God that Moses and the Jews were worshipping. Who freed the Jews from Egypt? It was the One God. What did moses teach was the path to salvation? Belief and worship of One God and following the law (ten commandments). They didn’t have the concept of the crucifixion and resurrection as a means for salvation. So, why suddenlt God changed the path for salvation with Jesus? It doesn’t make sense, and any rational christian should understand that.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. Paul Williams,

    Let me help you understand that there isn’t any Christian dilemma.

    First, the only way to resolve the Justice of God and the Mercy of God is at the Cross of Calvery.

    You fail to distiguesh between statements of Law and statements of Gospel.

    Here is the classic work on the distinction between Law & Gospel

    God is a holy God – all sin must be destroyed.

    Because the Midianites sinned, “They were worshipping Molac” they had to be removed from the land, and the land must be consecrated and become like a virgin” This is why the virgins were spared. The land needed to be consecrated by fire and purified.

    And if you continue reading the bible, you were see the Jews were warned that if they fell into sin, they would also be removed, which as you can see they were by the babalyonians and then by the Romans.

    The puritians loved these types of scriptures: See Jonathan Edwards Sermons https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/edwards_jonathan/sermons/sinners.cfm

    In Genesis God looked out onto all the land before the flood and said the imaginations of mens hearts are only evil – that was everybody including noah and his family – showing he is going to destroy all sin which he did in the flooding of the earth- the Arch of Noah is typology for the Gospel – where when we flee to Christ we are saved.

    Just as that typical christian response is a indicator that person is informed on good puritian theology, your misunderstanding shows you don’t really understand the distinction between statements of Law, and statements of Gospel. Your both in a dimemma

    Read the book by Walther, then we can have a real conversation.

    God Bless

    Jonathan

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    • Are you implying that Jesus created his mother that gave birth to him?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you for your question Christian Shirk

      I think you need an education lesson as well, because you fail to understand the two natures in the one person of Christ. 1 Person = 2 Natures. Look, you are flesh, and at the same time Spirit – two natures, yet only one person. It’s the same with Christ – he has a divine nature and the human nature – fully God and fully human but only 1 person.

      This was resolved at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 – You need to catch up on your history – this was solved over 1500 years ago – Please get up to date with the tomb of Leo.

      So in response to your question above – the answer is yes as it refers to his divine nature – not his human nature. Christ human nature is from Mary, this is why the Greeks refer to Mary as the God bearer, and we in the west refer to Mary as the mother of God.

      God Bless,

      Jonathan

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    • Can you tell me something from the OT or the NT that gives evidence for this “human nature” and “divine nature” distinction inside Jesus? (which makes no rational sense anyway but let’s go to scripture first)

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    • Thank you for your reply Christian Shirk

      Even though I am well equipped to speak on this historic christian doctrine – if your really interested in learning the historic position of our Christian Churches then I would recommend reading

      Martin Chemnitzs work on the two natures in Christ written in 1578 which covers the scriptural postion and goes into the historic debate on this issue and the formation of the Creed.

      God Bless

      Jonathan

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    • Jonathan

      You are a well educated Christian and thanks for your clarification which we have been getting from Christians for so many years.

      If you are not ashamed of saying God has flesh(human) nature and God(divine nature), then your God is not the only God with those natures. Hindus have flesh(human) and God(divine nature)-Sai Baba, flesh(Elephant) nature and God(divine nature), flesh(cow) nature and God(divine) nature and many more dual nature Gods in different religion. Your Christianity as you explained is in agreement with idolatry.

      I am not bashing Christians but saying the truth because I always say the Unitarian Christians, the Jews and the early Christians like Ebionites are in agreement with Muslims in worshiping the God of the Bible who said nothing is like Him. Some some dual nature gods with flesh and god is not like the God of the Bible.

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    • @Jonathan,

      Hello mate, the question is if Jesus is the same God of the OT…if “Yes” then it’s pretty logical to come to the conclusion that at some point in history he ordered some kind of “disturbing” stuff and put up strict laws…for some weird reasons when i politely state the same thing to some Christians who like point out how “violent” our Prophet is and how our law contains “disturbing” stuff such as stoning, they literally turn hostile as if i’m insulting Jesus, i mean i’m only stating the obvious then why do they have to get angry about it? Yeah the law is abolished in the NT(except moral ones) and i guess most of us don’t deny that but that doesn’t change the fact that at some point Jesus put forth ALMOST the “same” so called “barbaric” stuff that most many christians like to criticize in Islam…of course they will shout “Tu quoque” but any person with enough intelligence would see that it’s only an excuse to hide the fact that they live in a glass house…

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    • Thank you for your comments Shaad

      Yes – Jesus is the same in the Old Testament as he is in the New Testament – for Jesus is God –

      Now you are absolutely right Shaad – they shouldn’t get angry with you – they need to own these passages, so I apologize for ill informed Christians who are not acquainted with good reformed theology and don’t read the scriptures – God is a perfectly just & Holy God who cannot allow sin – sin must be dealt with – and God is also a perfectly Merciful God – and this get reconciled at the cross. There are difficult passages some Christians have a problem with In the New Testament like In John 2:15 Jesus made a whip and drove the people out of the temple and in revelation Christ is throwing Satan and his demons into the lake of eternal fire. Christ came to fulfill the law – this is the sacrifice that Paul is talking about in his letters to the Hebrews.

      So we preach a Just & Holy God as well as a perfectly Merciful God.

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Jonathan, you don’t have to apologize for them mate, their willful ignorance is not your fault…in fact you’re much better than them, you’re Intelligent, highly knowledgeable, polite and honest…

      Glad to regularly see you on this website by the way…

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    • Thank you for your kind words Shaad, they are truly appreciated. You have raised really good points in your past comments, and it was done in a very fair and balanced way, and I definitely commend you for that. When both sides can be open and honest, instead of finger pointing, not only does it allow for respect for both sides, but we can openly focus on educating each other on our perspective positions.

      God Bless

      Jonathan

      Liked by 1 person

    • “Look, you are flesh, and at the same time Spirit – two natures, yet only one person. It’s the same with Christ …”

      Here we go again the nonsense way

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Jonathan,

      Thanks mate 👍

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  3. correction: So, dual nature gods with flesh and got at the sane time is not like the God of the Bible.

    If you want us to believe or understand God can do everything including becoming a flesh man, then you also have to believe and understand other Gods who became flesh-humans. monkeys, elephants snakes, cow etc. We do believed God said in the Bible.

    Exodus 20New International Version (NIV)
    The Ten Commandments
    20 And God spoke all these words:

    2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

    3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

    4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

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  4. Thank you for your reply Intellect

    I think you are misunderstanding several points – let me see if I can claify several things for you.

    First – the Hindu’s believes in many gods, and they believe that we are all gods as like waves in the ocean we all return to the godhead after many lifetimes, just as waves return to the ocean. Christains become children of god by adoption, while the son of God was begotton from all eternity.

    To the hinus’s this world (creation) is an illusion – Whereas God (Christianity) creation was called good.

    I don’t think you understand Hinduism – and I don’t even think it’s a good idea to try to understand hinduism. lol. I think you are confused enough. For the Hindus, the world is an illusion – which keeps you from seeing god. Whereas in Genesis God calls his creation good.

    In regards to Sai Baba – I’m still waiting for his ressurection. Lol.

    You are missing what Christians are saying in the divine and human nature in the person of Christ. The Hindu view is based on what I said above, an theirs is an element of possession – in Christianity God was made flesh (there is no possession)

    So in the incarnation the Son of God is still fully God – He does not give up his divinity –

    I am pasting the Chalcedonian Creed below to document the position:

    “We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us”

    Now when you stated “I am not bashing Christians but saying the truth because I always say the Unitarian Christians, the Jews and the early Christians like Ebionites are in agreement with Muslims in worshiping the God of the Bible who said nothing is like Him.

    Now of course nothing is like God – We have a God who has perfect Justice and is prefectly Merciful – but those two things can only reconciled at the Cross –

    Now here is a big difference between Christianity & Islam

    Allah can forgive, but then there is no justice done for the sin – In Christianity we look at the price paid for our sin (Christ crying out on the cross)

    I’ll be waiting for your reply

    God Bless

    Jonathan

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    • “Allah can forgive, but then there is no justice done for the sin – In Christianity we look at the price paid for our sin (Christ crying out on the cross)”

      To forgive means to accept the repentance of the servant and the repentance then (due to the Mercy of God) eliminates the sins.
      If Jesus died for our sins and we have to believe in that and our sins will thereby be forgiven then that’s not forgiveness, nor repentance, nor justice.
      It’s a shift of our sins to another person. A righteous one at that!
      God taking your sins and shifting them to someone else is not forgiveness. Someone still pays for those sins.
      Someone else dying for your sins/crimes isn’t just no matter how you look at it. Especially if that person is as just as the Messiah! It doesn’t matter whether he did it voluntarily or not.

      Liked by 2 people

    • Jonathan

      God bless you. You are a good Christian brother. If we get people like you, you could convert us to Christianity because you don’t insult but to explain. Before you do that, you have more explanation to do. God revealed his scriptures in a language, so knowing what a word, sentence, phrase, idiom, metaphor, non metaphor means in a language can clarify things.

      ————————

      for·give·ness
      ˌfərˈɡivnəs/Submit
      noun
      the action or process of forgiving or being forgiven.
      “she is quick to ask forgiveness when she has overstepped the line”
      synonyms: pardon, absolution, exoneration, remission, dispensation, indulgence, clemency, mercy; reprieve, amnesty; archaicshrift
      “we beg your forgiveness”

      Source: https://www.google.ca/search?q=what+is+forgiveness&rlz=1C1AVFC_enCA778&oq=what+is+forgi&aqs=chrome.0.0l2j69i57j0l3.8852j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

      for·give
      fərˈɡiv/Submit
      verb
      stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.
      “I don’t think I’ll ever forgive David for the way he treated her”
      synonyms: pardon, excuse, exonerate, absolve; make allowances for, feel no resentment toward, feel no malice toward, harbor no grudge against, bury the hatchet with; let bygones be bygones; informallet off (the hook); formalexculpate
      “she would not forgive him”
      stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake).
      “they are not going to pat my head and say all is forgiven”
      cancel (a debt).
      “he proposed that their debts should be forgiven”

      ———————–
      to be continued…………

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    • Thank you for such kind words Intellect, and God bless you as well. I also appreciate your openness to discuss these topics in a respectful manor; you have shown great character, and patience. So I thank you in allowing me to share historic Christian doctrines with you.

      Intellect you bring up a great discussion point on Forgiveness so In getting back to our discussion, allow me to help convey the christian concept of Justification – which brings together the Justice of God & Gods Mercy at the cross of Calvary

      In our Christian Scriptures – Paul states in his letter to the Romans:

      Romans 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV)

      24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

      25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

      26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

      When we speak of the righteousness of God – we are speaking of God Attributes that flows out of his holiness. Justice and righteousness are often used synonymously in our scriptures as you can see from the above scriptural quote in Romans.

      to understand Gods Justice, we need to understand sin, for sin is Lawlessness as described in 1 John3:4, Daniel 9:4-5, Micah 2:1, James 3:6 etc..Sin is contrary to God’s holy nature and is offensive to him. Sin is a crime against God holy nature and is offensive to him and justice requires penalty to be paid for we have dishonored God with our ungodliness.

      This is why Paul says at the beginning of Romans “18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

      Think about it like “Shirk in Islam” your putting other things before Allah – which is a serious offense. When we sin against our Holy God, we are dishonoring his holy name and the honor needs to be redeemed.

      Now, westerners really don’t have an good understanding of honor, be it for cultural or other reasons – Yet Muslims do grasp this concept, and its important in understanding the christian concept of God being both Just and the justifier.in the redeposition process.

      Now when a woman is given over to marriage and she commits adultery she has dishonored the union and that honor needs to be redeemed – either the family will restore their honor by carrying out the penalty for her crimes or she will be stoned – either way the honor needs to be restored.

      Remember intellect, if someone steals your property, you can forgive him all you want, but your property needs to be restored back to you.

      The judge who doesn’t punish the criminal for his crime is not just at all – he has not satisfied the payment for that crime.

      So Christ at the Cross, Gods honor is redeemed and the penalty for sin is paid.

      Now for a fuller discussion in this issue – Anselm who was Archbishop of Canteberry for the Anglican Church really goes into this discussion in his work titled “Cur Deus Homo”

      https://www.ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/CURDEUS.HTM

      God Bless Intellect,

      Let me know if that helps out

      Jonathan

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    • ……….continued

      My dear Jonathan, forgive means to CANCEL debt, punishment, sin, wrong etc. free of charge. It does not mean to pay pay the debt, punish someone or wrong someone. In that case, there is no forgiveness and or mercy because there is punishment anyway.

      The cross is an injustice to either innocent man, God harming Himself which is injustice to his body and injustice of committing suicide. Human sacrifice is forbidden, punishing an innocent person is forbidden, harming one’s own body is a sin, so the cross is full of wrong and cannot be reconciliation with forgiveness.

      We all know Christians are nothing special when it comes to sin. Just like any human beings, the Christians keep doing sins everyday. Is it not injustice for God to forgive a Christian rapist but put the Christian victim to hell because he does not believe Jesus died for his sins?

      Christians are sinning against non Christians everyday is it not injustice for God to reward the Christian murders and put the victim to hell?

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Jonathan

      I am really having a good time engaging with you.

      You said;
      Remember intellect, if someone steals your property, you can forgive him all you want, but your property needs to be restored back to you.

      The judge who doesn’t punish the criminal for his crime is not just at all – he has not satisfied the payment for that crime.

      I say;
      God is sovereign.
      In God’s Mercy, a sincerely repentant criminal is not punished at all and that is when God forgives him, that is Mercy. It is the pagan gods that does not have mercy but needs to punish at all cost.

      Because God is sovereign, He can forgive sins without punishment. He does not need to kill Himself. He can grant to victims something. He has so many things i.e. money, comfort, beauty, heaven etc. to grant to the victim in order to cool him off than killing himself.

      If a thief sincerely repent, I can forgive him for my pain and suffering and demand my items back or I can forgive him for all i.e. take or keep the items you stole because you sincerely repented. I gave the thief the items he stole because he sincerely repented. What is wrong with that?

      Once again, God communicated with us in His scriptures using language that can be translated in either literal, metaphor or non metaphor.

      Forgive sins means CANCEL sin. If some one paid for the sin, then it is not forgiveness. It means the sin has not been forgiven but PAID for. If I give you a dirty slap without any provocation, I commit sin. I can repent and ask you for forgiveness. When you forgive me, it means you don’t have to slap me back, slap yourself or slap anyone. That is FORGIVENESS AND OR MERCY.

      to be continued………

      Liked by 1 person

    • Intellect – the honor is all mine – yourself and Shaad have been most welcoming to me on this site and really appreciate our interactions since I also get the benefit of discussing my faith with educated and well manor-ed gentlemen who are great representatives of their faith.

      Now, our understanding of God comes from the textual documents we have received – as do Muslims based their studies on the their sacred texts – so our theology doesn’t create the text, but the text gives us our theology.

      Now I really want to help you understand the Christian understanding of teaching that God is perfectly holy and just and does not tolerate sin yet at the same time is most perfectly merciful which is reconciled at the cross, because this is the Gospel Message of Historical Christianity even though many Christians over the last 200 years have rejected – As Shirk is a very serious issue is Islam – promoting an alternative form of the gospel message in Christianity is also putting is also having other God before the True Holy God which is why Paul states to the Galations ”

      Galatians 1:8-9King James Version (KJV)

      8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

      9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed

      The gospel message takes the law seriously. The sinner can be justified on no other basis than perfect obedience to the law as it is stated in Rom: 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Jesus the Law Giver himself came to this world to render that perfect obedience in man’s behalf. By his own perfect living in human flesh He magnified the law and made it honorable as is stated in Isiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable. By dying under its penalty Christ showed that the law is holy, just, good, unchangeable and everlasting as documented in Rom: 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good and in Psalm 19: 7-9 where it states:

      The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

      8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

      9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

      Intellect II quoted Rome 3:24-26 because the gospel has a higher and broader purpose than mans salvation. It is that God Himself might be just as well as the Justifier of him that believeth in Jesus when he says

      Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

      26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus

      The object of the atonement is that the divine law and government might be maintained. God was not only saving lost men at the cross, but he was securing the whole universe. He was not only justifying sinners, but he was justifying His own law and government.

      Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree….

      to be continued

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Jonathan,

      Hello again mate, you’ve brought up some really excellent points right there but but i still wonder, if Jesus was supposed to be the sacrifice, does that mean he died for ALL our sins? If “Yes” then another question pops up, isn’t the “Korban Chatat” supposed to be for UNINTENTIONAL sins(Leviticus 4:1-5, Numbers 15:27)? If “No” or “Yes”, then isn’t the blood supposed to be on the Altar for atonement(Leviticus 17:11)?

      Like

    • Shaad,

      Regarding your earlier question, Yes Christ died for all our sins as John the Baptist declares in John when he says “Behold the lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world” obviously John is using the lamb as a metaphor for Christ – for the lamb represents the innocent sacrifice.

      Regarding your second questions, the ordinances of the law/the alter, the sacrifices in the old testament were as Paul states in Colassians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

      These were types/typology to represent Christ who is our true passover – these past sacrifices were shadows of the future sacrifice of Christ as Paul speaks of in Hebrews.

      Does that help explain it?

      Look over what I wrote to Intellect as well – because the Gospel message has been lost by many professing Christians – this is why I feel outreach to other faiths have been unsuccessful in many instances because we don’t as Christians come to the table with sound theology –

      God Bless

      Jonathan

      Liked by 1 person

    • continued…………..

      The moment you slap yourself to harm yourself or slap me back or anyone else, there is no forgiveness and or mercy. That is what the cross means. No mercy and forgiveness from the Christian God. He had to punish by all means and that is not forgiveness and or Mercy.

      That is what the pagan gods are noted for. They have no mercy. The will have to punish at all cost. The God of the Bible or Quran is a Merciful and Forgiving God. He forgives free of charge, which means CANCELLING OF SIN and showing MERCY.

      God is sovereign and He does not owe anyone, so He can forgive sins free of charge without having to punish Himself which is absurd and injustice to His body or punish anyone which is injustice.

      The Christian God still have hell fire to punish people who a VICTIMS of Christian rapists, so you cannot say He is just to Christian rape VICTIMS. The Christian rapist will go to heaven but his victim will go to hell. I do not see justice to the rape victim who happens not to be Christian. You did not address the injustice of your Christian God here.

      So many women are now coming out with stories of sex, rape and abuse by Jewish i.e. Harvey Weinstein and Christians. The Church Fathers and Pastors like Jimmy Swaggart, Eddie Lee Long etc. will prove to us that, the death of Jesus Christ on the cross could not prevent Christians from sins. It is injustice to put the above Christians in heaven, then punish their non Christian victims in hell.

      mer·cy
      ˈmərsē/Submit
      noun
      1.
      compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one’s power to punish or harm.
      “the boy was screaming and begging for mercy”
      synonyms: leniency, clemency, compassion, grace, pity, charity, forgiveness, forbearance, quarter, humanity; soft-heartedness, tenderheartedness, kindness, sympathy, liberality, indulgence, tolerance, generosity, magnanimity, beneficence
      “he showed no mercy to the others”
      exclamationarchaic
      1.
      used in expressions of surprise or fear.
      ““Mercy me!” uttered Mrs. Garfield”

      Source: https://www.google.ca/search?q=what+is+mercy&rlz=1C1AVFC_enCA778CA779&oq=what+is+mercy&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5652j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

      Jonathan. Mercy means not to harm or punish. When the cross punishes whoever it did, means no mercy. It means the Christians God is not merciful. Mercy also means compassion and forgiveness.

      Thanks.

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    • Intellect, this is a continuation of my last response:

      Now the flood is a great illustration of how the Justice of God and the Mercy of God is put on full display. Now before the Flood God looks out over the earth and says in Genesis 6 :5-7

      ” And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

      6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

      7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; ”

      Now the Arch is our escape from the curse of the Law – for the purpose of the law as Paul describes is the knowledge of sin designed to convict us of our sins that we may flee to Christ.and look onto another as our hope and salvation.

      When Jesus tells Nicodomus – Just as Moses lifted up the Serpent in the desert so must the son of Man be lifted up was to illustrate the posion that was in the Jews in the desert and their only hope was to look upon the serpent to be cured – our sinful nature should drive us to Christ and lay hold to the promises that was secured for us at Calvery. Remember John the baptist saw Jesus and said in John “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”

      Remember, Christ says plainly in Matthew 5:17 that “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil”

      Now I know I have gone over allot of information and scriptures – but remember our understanding of God and salvation comes from our scriptures, and this is the teaching which is revealed in the Christian Scriptures.

      Hope this helps

      God Bless

      Jonathan

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Intellect, Sorry for breaking your Two part comment…it was not intentional…

      Like

    • Shaad

      Don’t worry. You did not break my comments. Now, this block does not take my long comments, so I have to break them in two’s, three’s or four’s. You have nothing to do with the break. I did it myself.

      Let’s hope our Christian brothers address our concerns first. If that is done, then they can convert us to Christianity. If there is a Christian that can convert learned Muslims to Christianity, then it is Jonathan, because he is patient, respectful and willing to engage with his theology. God Bless him and the Quran spoke of people like that.

      Certainly not Joel, Paulus etc. who are now on sabbatical leave..

      Thanks.

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Intellect,

      What i meant is that your comment is supposed to be side by side but i unintentionally came in between so sorry about that…

      You’re right by the way, he’s a nice guy….

      Like

    • @Jonathan,

      Thanks Jonathan your 2 answers(including the one to Latias) really helps a lot, the reason i asked you those 3 questions was to have a better understanding of how Jews interpret the crucifixion in terms of atonement and you’ve excellently made me understand how they differ and apparently as far as i can see it’s more in terms of scriptural interpretation rather than their perspective on Jesus himself….

      By the way Jonathan, are you from France?

      Like

    • Thanks for the comments Shaad,

      I actually grew up in Brooklyn New York born and raised before moving to the south US years ago. But my grandmother is from Tuscany Italy, – and I have an English background as well, Thank you again for hearing out the historic christian perspective on this issue –

      God Bless

      Jonathan

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Jonathan,

      Thank you for the kind words by the way, i really appreciate it…you’ve been a perfect gentleman man too, an EXCELLENT representative of your faith, a lot better than me… and i’ve learnt a lot from you…

      Like

    • @Jonathan,

      That’s cool 👍

      I’m from Mauritius by the way…

      Like

  5. Can’t “have” a dilemma if you ignore it (or just call it a mystery and then… ignore it).

    Liked by 1 person

  6. I tend to sparingly discuss the Old Testament around Christians now, except with some exceptions. Even when I was a Catholic, I tend to ignore the the Old Testament atrocities. It just isn’t palatable to talk about it.

    I guess we are all Marcionites now. (Look up Marcionites, and the iconic Richard Nixon aphorism.)

    I rather use my points in the New Testament to focus on Christology and soteriology. Christians are much more comfortable to talk about it.

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    • “I guess we are all Marcionites now. (Look up Marcionites, and the iconic Richard Nixon aphorism.)”

      Isn’t Marcionism kinda similar to Gnosticism?

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    • Shaad, I was just getting ready to respond to your earlier question along with Intellects, when I saw the response by Latias. Now Marcion of Pontus has been the subject of mine as it relates to New Testament Textual Criticism; For Irenaus Bishop of Lyons and Tertullian in North Africa deal with Marcion as it relates to his theological positions, and his claims that the text of the Apostolic Churches were interpolated by the defenders of Judaism with what he considered Jewish readings – Marcion also had a difficult time making a clear distinction between statements of Law, and the message of the Gospel. Now Marcion rejected the God of the old testament as the Evil God – his position was more Greek Dualism which was common in the ancient world. The creation of the world and Matter would be attributed to the demiurge (god of matter) and Jesus was the spiritual god. For Jesus to be God was not an issue with Marcion – but God taking on Flesh would be degrading to a Gnostic – this explains why Marcion removed the birth of Jesus in his version of Luke, and removed scriptures dealing with God as the creator of both heaven and earth. The Platonists view the body as the sepulcher of the soul – so the flesh or anything of matter would be what the spirit is trying to rid itself of. The spirit is the higher power, while the flesh/corporal matter is lesser… Marcion also stated the gnosis (Spirit) left jesus at the cross. What this all boils down to is that Marcion was unable to reconcile the Holiness of God, with the Mercy of God at the cross”

      Now Latias statement “I tend to ignore the the Old Testament atrocities” is also indicative of a lack of understanding between statements of Law and the Gospel Message – The gospel message takes the law seriously. The sinner can be justified on no other basis than perfect obedience to the law as it is stated in Rom: 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Jesus the Law Giver himself came to this world to render that perfect obedience in man’s behalf. By his own perfect living in human flesh He magnified the law and made it honorable as is stated in Isiah 42:21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable. By dying under its penalty Christ showed that the law is holy, just, good, unchangeable and everlasting as documented in Rom: 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good and in Psalm 19: 7-9 where it states:

      The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

      8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.

      9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.

      Shaad, I quoted Rome 3:24-26 to intellect because the gospel has a higher and broader purpose than mans salvation. It is that God Himself might be just as well as the Justifier of him that believeth in Jesus when he says

      Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

      26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus

      The object of the atonement is that the divine law and government might be maintained. God was not only saving lost men at the cross, but he was securing the whole universe. He was not only justifying sinners, but he was justifying His own law and government.

      I’ll explain more on this in my conversation with Intellect, and I’ll respond to your earlier question here shortly.

      Hopefully Shaad this helps to explain more about the historic Christian doctrine – You and Intellect have both represented your selves as gentlemen in allowing a christian like myself in explaining our historic teachings even though I know your experiences in the past with other Christians did not reciprocate the same type of respect.

      God Bless,

      Jonathan

      Liked by 1 person

    • I meant to say that most Christians are de facto Marcionites in the sense that they do not want to largely discount much of the stuff from the Old Testament. They do not want to associate that with their Trinitarian deity.

      Liked by 2 people

    • @Jonathan,

      I’ve replied on our conversation above…☺

      Like

    • Huh, i wonder how on earth my emoji looks weird on my phone right now…

      Like

  7. One of many dilemmas

    Like

  8. Dr Ally in his amazing refutation to Jay Smith

    Liked by 3 people

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